Sox like Dye, but at what cost?..... Goodbye Buerhle ?

[NorthSideSox72]

I'm suggesting a balance. Everything Kenny is quoted as saying in regards to signing Buerhle , Crede and Dye is negative. If the market has changed that much how do ever manage to keep anyone once they become players who are worth big money. How do you attract big names to Chicago ? Go read the "how I became a Sox fan" thread and see how many people , in the limited number of responses said they are Sox fans because of Frank Thomas. Big time players attract fans. Do not go telling me my response doesn't make sense . That is personal . I can argue my point as can you without implying my train of thought is convoluted.

 

I realize the course the Sox are taking and can argue pro or con on the point. I know its not the GM's job to make the fans happy per se but that certainly is a consideration. The happier the fans are the more they come to games. The more they come to games the more money they can put into the team. But oh no now the market has changed and attendance means nothing. If I wanted to track down quotes by Williams and Reinsdorf I'm sure I could about once the fans get their butts in the seats we can spend more money.

 

I am truly amazed winning a world series once in 88 years and everyone forgets decades of White Sox incompetence. If baseball historians had to pick one team and call it the laughingstock of baseball it would be the Sox. I can see both sides of the argument very clearly and can understand givng Kenny the benefit of the doubt because of market conditions. However baseball and White Sox history tells me that our window of opportunity is officially closed and the rebuilding has begun. We are now the Florida Marlins after their 1st world series victory. Lets just hope the course of action pays dividends as soon as theirs did and doesnt take another 88 years.

Just keep in mind too, that just because Kenny speaks negatively, that doesn't mean some or all of those players won't be kept. They may or may not be. But what he says in the press is all part of the poker game.

 

When all is said and done, on April 1, I'd be really surprised if this team wasn't in a better position to win than they were when the 2006 season ended.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

A market inefficiency. Quality to all-star major leaguers who could be had at a very good price. The free agent market was way undervaluing these players. This is not the case right now. A career .300 hitting lefty catcher for $2.5 million. Maybe you could get him for 3 times that right now. More the type of prices we got JD, AJ, Gooch, etc, now you could not get players far inferior to them for anywhere near those prices.

No. It's the opposite of that. It's a regular face in philosophy. Exploiting market inefficiencies. The market is rediculously overpaying for free agents in general and pitching in particular.

 

I have given Kenny every credit in the world for his ability to put the World Championship team together. Evrything fell into place very nicely. Many players had quality years or just did what they were capable of doing as they had proven they could do in the past. We gave up major league talent for major league talent and pulled the rabbit out of the hat after reaching into it every year for 88 years and coming up empty.

 

I dont pretend to imagine I have more knowledge of how to put together a world champ than guys who get paid to do it for a living. But I do recognize a rebuilding when I see it and will not pretend it is anything but that because of blind allegiance to the franchise.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Just keep in mind too, that just because Kenny speaks negatively, that doesn't mean some or all of those players won't be kept. They may or may not be. But what he says in the press is all part of the poker game.

 

When all is said and done, on April 1, I'd be really surprised if this team wasn't in a better position to win than they were when the 2006 season ended.

 

I have kept that in mind which is why I have hope they can resign JD. But with the kind of money Zito got and the Scott Boras factor regarding JC I'd be hard pressed to think they will get resigned. I've got my fingers crossed that Kenny's got one more major move up his sleeve that will bring some ML ready talent that will hold off the rebuilding process for the coming year. As it stands right now we have a few too many holes and inpending free agents to think next year is anything but the start of the "we'll be in another World Series in 5 years when some of these players we traded for pan out if we're really lucky " mode.

Edited January 15, 2007 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Cali, I did not mean to get personal with you,and that was not my intent. From the little I have seen you post, you seem to be very knowledgeable when it comes to the Sox. Just thought I would post that before I read your whole post.

IMO, you're going too far. To call the Sox the Flordia Marlins is a bit of a stretch, and that's being nice. What some Sox fans forget is we will still have a 100 million dollar payroll going into 2007.

 

Actually calling us the Florida Marlins should be construed as a compliment. If we completely tear the team down and win another World Series in 5 years that means Kenny's plan of action this year and the years to follow (if his philosophy doesn't change again) will have come to fruition. They have 2 World Series victory's in their short time as a franchise do they not ?

[CWSGuy406]

I'm suggesting a balance. Everything Kenny is quoted as saying in regards to signing Buerhle , Crede and Dye is negative. [...] Big time players attract fans.

 

There's your problem, and the problem of many, many GMs this offseason; your saying that a good player is a "big time" player. Crede is not a "big time" player. To Sox fans he is because what he did for us in 2005, but in reality, he's not one of the five-six best thirdbasemen in all of baseball. Yet he's going to get paid like one.

 

I already touched on Crede a little bit, but the truth is that Joe is never going to be a great hitter because he doesn't walk a whole lot. Oh, yeah, and there's that whole back thing.

 

Kenny's problem isn't with paying big money. He'll pay big money for star players, and I don't think any of the three of the names above are in that category. Maybe Buehrle if the second half of 2006 was a fluke, but I want to see that proven over at least 3/4ths of a season. If Buehrle is his usual innings-eating, 3.75 ERA self, and his fastball speed is back up to 90, not 85-86 like last year, than I'd certainly look at extending him (even at a costly price, ie 4 years/$75 million, but no more than five years).

 

Dye isn't a star because of his age, and the fact that he's never come close to putting up last year's offensive numbers. That's not to say he won't be a solid RFer for the next several seasons, but I would bet against him being a 1.000 OPS player ever again.

[Kalapse]

Crede is not a "big time" player. To Sox fans he is because what he did for us in 2005, but in reality, he's not one of the five-six best thirdbasemen in all of baseball. Yet he's going to get paid like one.

Just in case this point is debated, here's a list of 3B off the top of my head who could be considered equal to or better than Crede.

 

Miguel Cabrera

Alex Rodriguez

Scott Rolen

Aramis Ramirez

Dan Wright

Chipper Jones

Eric Chavez

 

Ryan Zimmerman

Adrian Beltre

Garret Atkins

[witesoxfan]

Just in case this point is debated, here's a list of 3B off the top of my head who could be considered equal to or better than Crede.

 

Miguel Cabrera

Alex Rodriguez

Scott Rolen

Aramis Ramirez

Dan Wright

Chipper Jones

Eric Chavez

 

Ryan Zimmerman

Adrian Beltre

Garret Atkins

 

OH NOS

 

Anyways, just going with what I remember...

 

Miguel Cabrera - agree, with defense not even being considered.

Alex Rodriguez - ^^^

Scott Rolen - injury proneness scares me, but when healthy, he is without a doubt

Aramis Ramirez - I would consider these two equal. Crede doesn't walk, but Aramis may as well go out into the field bare-handed.

David Wright - completely agree

Chipper Jones - even as an older player, he is vastly superior. I wouldn't take him over Crede as a rebuilding organization, due to age, but he is a superior player

Eric Chavez - agree, though not as good defensively anymore. Needs to prove last year was a fluke

 

Ryan Zimmerman - is already, and he is going to get better

Adrian Beltre - defensively, yes. Offensively, he needs to learn to not hit .260

Garret Atkins - I'd have to research, and I'm going off of what I remember, so I'll either have to agree by default or not comment

 

If Brandon Inge could hit for any sort of average while keeping the power, he'd be better as well. Also, as mediocre defensively as Glaus is, he is in that neighborhood too. Alex Gordon is (likely) going to be better soon as well. There are others who are probably borderline too.

 

Crede's good, but he's not going to be worth the contract he gets, because Boras is friggin good.

Edited January 15, 2007 by witesoxfan

[Kalapse]

Adrian Beltre - defensively, yes. Offensively, he needs to learn to not hit .260

Garret Atkins - I'd have to research, and I'm going off of what I remember, so I'll either have to agree by default or not comment

 

If Brandon Inge could hit for any sort of average while keeping the power, he'd be better as well. Also, as mediocre defensively as Glaus is, he is in that neighborhood too. Alex Gordon is (likely) going to be better soon as well. There are others who are probably borderline too.

 

Crede's good, but he's not going to be worth the contract he gets, because Boras is friggin good.

On Beltre, defensively I agree with you they're basically equals. On the offensive side he's had a few years where he's managed 50+ walks which is basically twice as good as Crede, he also possesses better power than Joe (though he hasn't really showed it since his career year) and despite his abysmal batting average he still has a knack for knocking guys in. He's a year younger than Crede and has no nagging injuries so he will hopefully build on these pluses in the coming years (entering his prime) and become a pretty damn good all-around player.

 

My very quick Garret Atkins scouting report: 26 year old who possesses a mean power stroke which is still developing, RBI machine (120 last season and 89 in his rookie season ('05)), good all around hitter but most importantly he has an excellent eye, the guy knows how to get on base (unlike Joseph). On the defensive side I'd say he's roughly average at this point in his career.

 

I totally forgot about Inge next year should be pretty telling as to whether he's THAT good or not, if he manages to duplicate his numbers (plus raise his average) while maintaining his excellent defense I'd definitely put him right up there with Crede.

 

Agree on Gordon and Glaus as well.

 

Others to consider: Edwin Encarnacion (young and getting better), Mike Lowell and Freddy Sanchez (I have no idea if he's as good as he was last season.)

[nitetrain8601]

I agree with Inge. Watching him last year made me think the Tigers stole Joe Crede. The way they move defensively is even the same.

[witesoxfan]

On Beltre, defensively I agree with you they're basically equals. On the offensive side he's had a few years where he's managed 50+ walks which is basically twice as good as Crede, he also possesses better power than Joe (though he hasn't really showed it since his career year) and despite his abysmal batting average he still has a knack for knocking guys in. He's a year younger than Crede and has no nagging injuries so he will hopefully build on these pluses in the coming years (entering his prime) and become a pretty damn good all-around player.

 

My very quick Garret Atkins scouting report: 26 year old who possesses a mean power stroke which is still developing, RBI machine (120 last season and 89 in his rookie season ('05)), good all around hitter but most importantly he has an excellent eye, the guy knows how to get on base (unlike Joseph). On the defensive side I'd say he's roughly average at this point in his career.

 

I totally forgot about Inge next year should be pretty telling as to whether he's THAT good or not, if he manages to duplicate his numbers (plus raise his average) while maintaining his excellent defense I'd definitely put him right up there with Crede.

 

Agree on Gordon and Glaus as well.

 

Others to consider: Edwin Encarnacion (young and getting better), Mike Lowell and Freddy Sanchez (I have no idea if he's as good as he was last season.)

 

I will say that I have always loved Beltre, even in the years he's struggled. I thought he may have been a possibility for the Sox this year had KW traded Crede away, but that package never formulated (and thank God it didn't). He had a very solid second half last year, so I'm looking forward to see what kind of year he could have this year.

 

I have forgotten Andy Marte. I'm not a huge fan, but he has some pretty mean power. He's probably a year away from being really good, but he could be solid this year and it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

 

Chad Tracy's in the same ballpark as well.

 

And if you want to delve into players who could play 3B, but don't, you can compare Bill Hall to Crede as well. That's when reaching for players comes into play though, so Hall is as far as I'm going to go on that topic.

 

I think we have atleast proven that Crede is not elite.

[greg775]

White Sox aren't cheap...they are being fiscally responsible. That's a HUGE difference. Cheap would be going out and getting scrap heap players who just want to play. Fiscally responsible means realizing it's not worth hamstringing your team for years for one player.

 

My question to you is then ... if these players like Dye, Crede, Mark are not good

enough to sign, why will other teams be lining up to sign them on their terms?

If fiscal responsibility means getting rid of all the cogs of a world championship team

and offending its fanbase in the process for what will certainly be downgrades at

many positions, so be it.

 

To you who blast me and others for bagging on Jerry for not spending money to keep

our heroes ... who do you envision being our next Buehrle, our next Dye, our next

Crede, our next Freddie, our next Contreras? You are counting on these guys Kenny is

stockpiling to pan out and likely downgrades with Dye and Crede.

 

and my position isn't as absurd as some of you make it out to be. My position is

the one I've read by Couch and Morrissey in the Trib and Sun Times others are

baffled as well. It's not like I am some complete moron who has watched no

baseball in his lifetime. I've followed this team and baseball like the rest of you.

 

And Tony if you hate my posts you must detest reading Couch and Morrissey, et all

because what they have written is not much different than what I'm saying.

Edited January 15, 2007 by greg775

[greasywheels121]

My question to you is then ... if these players like Dye, Crede, Mark are not good

enough to sign, why will other teams be lining up to sign them on their terms?

If fiscal responsibility means getting rid of all the cogs of a world championship team

and offending its fanbase in the process for what will certainly be downgrades at

many positions, so be it.

 

To you who blast me and others for bagging on Jerry for not spending money to keep

our heroes ... who do you envision being our next Buehrle, our next Dye, our next

Crede, our next Freddie, our next Contreras? You are counting on these guys Kenny is

stockpiling to pan out and likely downgrades with Dye and Crede.

 

and my position isn't as absurd as some of you make it out to be. My position is

the one I've read by Couch and Morrissey in the Trib and Sun Times others are

baffled as well. It's not like I am some complete moron who has watched no

baseball in his lifetime. I've followed this team and baseball like the rest of you.

 

The Sox should not spend ~$200M to keep 3 guys on the team for another 10 years.

 

You only have a legit point if one team signs Dye, Crede, and Mark all to current market deals. And that'll never happen, because no team is that dumb.

[CanOfCorn]

My question to you is then ... if these players like Dye, Crede, Mark are not good

enough to sign, why will other teams be lining up to sign them on their terms?

If fiscal responsibility means getting rid of all the cogs of a world championship team

and offending its fanbase in the process for what will certainly be downgrades at

many positions, so be it.

 

To you who blast me and others for bagging on Jerry for not spending money to keep

our heroes ... who do you envision being our next Buehrle, our next Dye, our next

Crede, our next Freddie, our next Contreras? You are counting on these guys Kenny is

stockpiling to pan out and likely downgrades with Dye and Crede.

 

and my position isn't as absurd as some of you make it out to be. My position is

the one I've read by Couch and Morrissey in the Trib and Sun Times others are

baffled as well. It's not like I am some complete moron who has watched no

baseball in his lifetime. I've followed this team and baseball like the rest of you.

 

And Tony if you hate my posts you must detest reading Couch and Morrissey, et all

because what they have written is not much different than what I'm saying.

 

I'll tell you why other teams will be lining up to sign them...because they have inferior talent and no one they can trust to take that place. GMs overpay for need. Fields may not be as good as Crede, or Sweeney as Dye or any of the signed pitchers as Buehrle, but they have to try. Are we supposed to keep them until they want to retire? Just because they helped us win a championship? And not only that, KW used a lot of the prospects to get major league players, almost to the point of not having any good prospects. Now we do again. So, who knows, maybe none of these players will ever play for the Sox, maybe they WILL be used to get other major league players.

 

Also, what if we sign these players to market contracts and they all get injured? Now what? How's about this...when you or Cali become GMs, do whatever you want. Until then, deal with it. Root for the team they put on the field, or find another one.

 

And by the way, John Schuerholtz is considered to be one of the best GMs in the game...you know how many WS he's been to? He's been to five NLCS and won only once. Does that make him better or worse?

[Balta1701]

My question to you is then ... if these players like Dye, Crede, Mark are not good

enough to sign, why will other teams be lining up to sign them on their terms?

If fiscal responsibility means getting rid of all the cogs of a world championship team

and offending its fanbase in the process for what will certainly be downgrades at

many positions, so be it.

 

To you who blast me and others for bagging on Jerry for not spending money to keep

our heroes ... who do you envision being our next Buehrle, our next Dye, our next

Crede, our next Freddie, our next Contreras? You are counting on these guys Kenny is

stockpiling to pan out and likely downgrades with Dye and Crede.

No one has yet responded to the point I raised earlier.

 

To hold together the exact same team from last year, with 0 improvements, would within 2 years cost something in the range of $150 million a year, maybe more. That's keeping Podsednik in LF, Uribe at SS, Anderson in CF, etc.

 

Unless our revenue is rivaling the Yankees, I just can't see how the White Sox could seriously pull that off. There are 2 ways to do this. Either the White Sox could make 1 last complete push next year and then watch as the entire thing comes crumbling down because they don't have $130 million to spend in 2008 and $150 in 09, or the Sox could take their chances on the same scouts who found the talent that won in 05.

[beautox]

I have forgotten Andy Marte. I'm not a huge fan, but he has some pretty mean power. He's probably a year away from being really good, but he could be solid this year and it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

 

Chad Tracy's in the same ballpark as well.

 

And if you want to delve into players who could play 3B, but don't, you can compare Bill Hall to Crede as well. That's when reaching for players comes into play though, so Hall is as far as I'm going to go on that topic.

 

I think we have atleast proven that Crede is not elite.

I'm not believing the hype on Marte his last 500 professional ABs have been pretty crappy, and he is average at 3B; infact i see nothing in his MILB records to even make me say "wow super talent" its no wonder the braves traded him.

[Soxfest]

Payroll may be 100 mil but with revenues from 2006 it can be higher without management being tapped out!

[Kalapse]

I will say that I have always loved Beltre, even in the years he's struggled. I thought he may have been a possibility for the Sox this year had KW traded Crede away, but that package never formulated (and thank God it didn't). He had a very solid second half last year, so I'm looking forward to see what kind of year he could have this year.

 

I have forgotten Andy Marte. I'm not a huge fan, but he has some pretty mean power. He's probably a year away from being really good, but he could be solid this year and it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

 

Chad Tracy's in the same ballpark as well.

 

And if you want to delve into players who could play 3B, but don't, you can compare Bill Hall to Crede as well. That's when reaching for players comes into play though, so Hall is as far as I'm going to go on that topic.

 

I think we have atleast proven that Crede is not elite.

Just thinking about this a bit more it's pretty funny that if Crede played for the Phillies he'd be the worst 3B in his division.

[KevHead0881]

This doesn't say a whole lot, but I guess its something...

 

White Sox poised to sign Crede

[Texsox]

All this comes at a time when the Sox have one of the highest payrolls in baseball. I can't imagine how even smaller payrolls manage this. It's cut off your nuts time every year.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Also, what if we sign these players to market contracts and they all get injured? Now what? How's about this...when you or Cali become GMs, do whatever you want. Until then, deal with it. Root for the team they put on the field, or find another one.

 

Whoa listen ! Argue your point. I respect your opinion on the baseball matters that are being discussed here , but you are way out of line here ! Where do u come off saying if I disagree with you or the White Sox philosophy (so far) in the offseason I should find another team to root for ? I don't have a right to disagree with management ? GM's have never made bad moves before ? I'm supposed to agree with every move they make or I should root for another team because you don't like my opinion ? Stick with arguing your side of the arguement and go play dictator somewhere else.

[witesoxfan]

I'm not believing the hype on Marte his last 500 professional ABs have been pretty crappy, and he is average at 3B; infact i see nothing in his MILB records to even make me say "wow super talent" its no wonder the braves traded him.

 

Agreed, and they got a top tier SS out of the whole deal too.

 

Schuerholz is pretty much amazing.