Vizquel probably a FA

[beck72]

From the Cle. Plain Dealer:

 

Enjoying Vizquel as swan song nears

Thursday, August 26, 2004

Speaking of next year - a discussion topic of pertinence these days at Jacobs Field - the month of September will be best spent saying goodbye to Omar Vizquel.

 

All good things come to an end. The bad, too, at least according to the promises in the self-help section of the bookstore.

 

Evidence of that was sparse as it applied to losing streaks that threaten to take team researchers back 25 years for a similar skid. But two Indians runs in the eighth stood up this time with Rafael Betancourt on the mound, and they ended their nine-game slide, 4-3, against the Yankees.

 

Vizquel watched old friend Kenny Lofton stand on first base, take a deep breath and doff his cap to a crowd brought to its feet to applaud his 2,000th career hit in the fourth inning.

 

"It was weird to see Kenny get that hit in a different uniform," Vizquel said. "Especially after spending so many years next to him."

 

Vizquel got his 2,000th earlier this season, but he'll almost surely re-enact the return to Jacobs Field in another uniform. The only way he won't is if he finishes his career with a National League team. He's 37 but has often talked of playing until he's 40 and that obstructs the timetable for turning the middle infield over to less expensive young players promising to wield bigger bats.

 

The Chicago White Sox, who arrive today for a four-game series, look like a leading candidate for another Indians' transplant. When don't they?

 

Lofton did a stopover there. So did Albert Belle and the Alomar brothers, Robbie proving that chances with the White Sox are a gift that keeps on giving.

 

Manager Ozzie Guillen and Vizquel share roots in the dirt of Venezuela's sandlots. More important than any sentimental connection, the White Sox front office could use a sure hand at shortstop that only costs them money after trading seven prospects for Robbie Alomar and Carl Everett in acquiring each player twice.

 

Cash is a more frequent topic of discussion here than it is in Chicago. Vizquel and Lofton could never have seen that coming when they shared the Indians' lineup in the '90s. But that's what it keeps coming back to in the case of Vizquel.

 

Jhonny Peralta is blitzing the International League in Buffalo. Some in the organization believe he could play third base but the Indians' signed Aaron Boone to play there next year. Vizquel has said "a decent offer" could keep him in Cleveland but "decent" is relative. Peralta could bring more run production than Vizquel for a shade over $300,000. Even $2 million a season looks indecent compared to that especially under the streamlined model in place. That's $2 million they can't spend elsewhere.

 

"I'm just going to continue to believe that I'll be back," said Vizquel. "All I'm thinking about is finishing strong. Myself and the team. It won't be hard to stay focused because this is an important process for us to go through. You learn to be a contender when you play games like this when you are tried and dragging. This will prepare us to contend next season."

 

The Indians should want him back. His .300 season and strong defense since switching gloves has given them reason to consider it where absolutely none existed in the beginning of the season.

 

But they can't do it. The team economy can't justify it. He is doing more for his Hall of Fame credentials than he is for his future with the Indians.

 

Enjoy Omar Vizquel every dwindling chance you get.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Getting Vizquel for SS has to be on the minds of Ozzie and KW. Sign him to a two yr contract. With him at SS, there wouldn't be room for Uribe, Harris and Crede. Most likely, Wilson Valdez would be the UTL IFer. [i know he's played SS and 2B but I don't know about 3B]

 

My guess is Crede would have the most value, and could be traded if they signed Omar. Uribe could be moved to 3B, kept around as SS and 2B insurance. In two yrs after Vizquels contract was up, Josh Fields might be ready for 3B.

[DBAHO]

Fields could be ready sometime in 2006 if he keeps progressing. It really is an interesting decision about Omar Vizquel. Do we give Juan Uribe another chance at SS? Do we sign Vizquel for 1 or 2 years as a filler? Should we go for a younger, speedier guy instead? Or why don't we sign a 3B like Corey Koskie instead?

 

A lot of questions that will need answering this offseason for KW. I wonder if the Indians think if they might have made a mistake in signing Aaron Boone now as well, especially if he doesn't come back to form next season.

[beck72]

Fields could be ready sometime in 2006 if he keeps progressing. It really is an interesting decision about Omar Vizquel. Do we give Juan Uribe another chance at SS? Do we sign Vizquel for 1 or 2 years as a filler? Should we go for a younger, speedier guy instead? Or why don't we sign a 3B like Corey Koskie instead?

 

A lot of questions that will need answering this offseason for KW. I wonder if the Indians think if they might have made a mistake in signing Aaron Boone now as well, especially if he doesn't come back to form next season.

I really don't want Uribe as an everyday SS, unless the Sox could add a leadoff man who could add what Vizquel could. Uribe is a slightly different version of Jose. His career OBP is just over .300. He's streaky, and an easy out for long stretches.

 

Guys like Uribe and Crede have a lot of value. My guess is one of the two will go if Vizquel is signed. At 3B I can live with Uribe, as long as his defense holds there. But at SS, Vizquel would add too much to this team, even at age 38 and 39. Though Crede should be able to bounce back and get to at least his 2003 numbers.

 

I'd like a FA like Koskie. But if Vizquel wants to come here and signs, a move of Crede or Uribe should happen. Also, Valdez is in the mix. His glove and bat are very consistent. A UTL player who can play SS and 2B, a Uribe type who makes better contact and as good as d.

 

Cle. still has Blake at 3B. With Blake locked up cheap, they could hold onto him to make sure Boone bounces back. With rookie Peralta at SS, having a vet like Boone beside him could be decent.

[Old Socks]

I remember when the Indians stole Omar from Seattle in the early 90's. They got him for nothing. Seattle's only motive was to not pay his salary, and they got some SS who could not pay at all. ARod was still two yrs away.

[Guest JimH]

You guys are right, the Sox have to be thinking about this.

 

Can you imagine the venom at SoxTalk if they sign Vizquel - "why do we always get all these washed up ex-Indians?"

 

I'm not completely sold on Uribe but I will say I really like his energy and passion. He can be a little clueless at times, particularly in terms of strike zone judgement, but he clearly has talent. He's been better than I thought defensively.

 

Decisions, decisions ...

[israel4ever]

Sign Koskie, or Adrian Beltre, or Glaus...ANYONE BUT CREDE!!!

[Hatchetman]

I don't want any stopgaps. This team needs more. You want to compete with Minnesota and Cleveland with guys like 40 year-old Vizquel? This team needs a major talent infusion, not a 40 year old SS who's going to hit .270, no power, no speed, no OBP....

[3E8]

Uribe > Vizquel

 

Uribe plays a fine SS. 'Nuff said.

[Guest JimH]

Uribe > Vizquel

 

Uribe plays a fine SS.  'Nuff said.

I agree Uribe plays a very good SS, but there's more to it than that.

 

Uribe is a talent but he needs to refine his offensive game ... a lot.

 

I'm not necessarily stating they should go out and get Vizquel asap, but I'm not sold on Uribe as the full time SS on a team with championship aspirations either.

Vizquel for 110 games and Uribe for the remainder is an awfully good combination if you ask me.

[3E8]

I agree Uribe plays a very good SS, but there's more to it than that.

 

Uribe is a talent but he needs to refine his offensive game ... a lot.

 

I'm not necessarily stating they should go out and get Vizquel asap, but I'm not sold on Uribe as the full time SS on a team with championship aspirations either.

Vizquel for 110 games and Uribe for the remainder is an awfully good combination if you ask me.

The offensive production numbers between a 38-year old Vizquel and a 26-year old Uribe are trivial. With our tight budget, we need to spend that 3 million elsewhere (gap in starting rotation).

[Guest JimH]

The offensive production numbers between a 38-year old Vizquel and a 26-year old Uribe are trivial.  With our tight budget, we need to spend that 3 million elsewhere (gap in starting rotation).

They have lots of cash coming in ... attendance, Comcast deal. Also some cash coming off the books.

 

Adding a guy like Vizquel is not prohibitive cash-wise and shouldn't impact getting a starting pitcher at all.

 

It's not just the numbers difference between what Uribe would do and what Vizquel would do. The intangible difference is huge, and so is the ability to play small ball, work the count, etc. Vizquel has historically been great at that. A veteran would take the pressure off some other guys in the lineup too. To me, Uribe benefits from another year as super sub - if someone goes down to injury you've got an excellent replacement.

 

I think highly of Uribe but think he needs more mentoring and fine tuning of his game, particularly if this team has playoff aspirations in '05, which they do.

 

Maybe it's just a personal opinion, but for me it comes down to are they smart to commit to Uribe as FT shortstop or let him continue to grow under a bit less pressure by signing a good fit at SS (other than strikeout king Valentin). There's no right answer here at the end of August but you can bet management is thinking about all of this, big time.

[beck72]

The offensive production numbers between a 38-year old Vizquel and a 26-year old Uribe are trivial.  With our tight budget, we need to spend that 3 million elsewhere (gap in starting rotation).

Is Uribe a top of order hitter? No

Is Vizquel, even at age 37? Yes

Could the Sox use Vizquel's 16 SB, .300 ba, .360 OBP, his situational hitting [leads the AL in SH,] contact [45 BB/ 51 K's], and solid defense? Yes

 

The Sox need a #1 or #2 hitter, to go along with Rowand to get on base. Vizquel would be a solid option, and wouldn't be expensive. Getting a guy like Vizquel wouldn't keep the Sox from adding a SP. Though getting a guy like Renteria for SS would.

[3E8]

The Sox need a #1 or #2 hitter, to go along with Rowand to get on base.

What's wrong with Willie?

[beck72]

I don't want any stopgaps. This team needs more. You want to compete with Minnesota and Cleveland with guys like 40 year-old Vizquel?  This team needs a major talent infusion, not a 40 year old SS who's going to hit .270, no power, no speed, no OBP....

the Sox don't need a complete rebuilding. they need to break up the core, sure. but adding a few pieces is the way to go, coupled w/ solid pitching. The Sox farm systems in AA and high A have great talent. That is the best way to win year in and year out. But the sox talent aren't exactly all 35 yr olds, ala Seattle.

 

The sox have guys with trade value to acquire younger talent with. Getting Vizquel wouldn't be the centerpiece. But he would help.

 

As far as Vizquel with no talent, no speed, no OBP--he's among the major league leaders in BA, SB, SH and OBP for SS's. Even at age 37. And plays solid defense. He'd be an upgrade over Jose V.

[bjm676]

Edgar Renteria?

[3E8]

Is Uribe a top of order hitter? No

Juan Uribe's stats, by batting slot:

 

When batting leadoff: .272 AVG, .352 OBP, .479 SLG

 

When batting second: .276 AVG, .330 OBP, .517 SLG, 9 HR's

 

It's nothing to scoff at.

[Hatchetman]

Take an average of his last four years and then account for him being 38 and make an educated guess as to his level of production. He's not a difference maker and that's what we need. I don't see him being much better than Uribe.

[beck72]

What's wrong with Willie?

Willie's fine for a #9 hitter, and has a nice future. Maybe in few years he'll be a #1, when he learns how to steal bases and bunt, and hit LH and RHP equally well. But for 2005, I want a proven #1 or #2, to team with Rowand.

 

Vizquel being a switch hitter also helps the Sox

[YASNY]

I remember when the Indians stole Omar from Seattle in the early 90's.  They got him for nothing.  Seattle's only motive was to not pay his salary, and they got some SS who could not pay at all.  ARod was still two yrs away.

That is exactly the type of SS we need to acquire. Not a 38 year old relic to "build" around.

[beck72]

Juan Uribe's stats, by batting slot:

 

When batting leadoff:  .272 AVG, .352 OBP, .479 SLG

 

When batting second:  .276 AVG, .330 OBP, .517 SLG, 9 HR's

 

It's nothing to scoff at.

We can debate the merits of who would be a better #1 or #2 hitter, Uribe or Vizquel. [the stats and smart money would be on Omar though] Yet Ozzie and Co. have stated they want to add speed and contact hitters to the lineup. Vizquel fits that bill.

 

Uribe is a solid #6-9 hitter. No question. And he'll probably improve on his career avgs of .258 / .302/ .468. And he would be nice for the long term on the Sox. Yet which player would help the sox the most in 2005 and the near future? I bet most GM's around the league would say Vizquel would help fill the Sox needs better. And most likely Uribe would still be around to be the UTL player he was this year.

[YASNY]

We can debate the merits of who would be a better #1 or #2 hitter, Uribe or Vizquel. [the stats and smart money would be on Omar though]  Yet Ozzie and Co. have stated they want to add speed and contact hitters to the lineup. Vizquel fits that bill.

 

Uribe is a solid #6-9 hitter. No question. And he'll probably improve on his career avgs of .258 / .302/ .468. And he would be nice for the long term on the Sox. Yet which player would help the sox the most in 2005 and the near future? I bet most GM's around the league would say Vizquel would help fill the Sox needs better. And most likely Uribe would still be around to be the UTL player he was this year.

You have some good points. But how long will it be till Vizquel has a Robbie Alomar type drop off in his production? It just may happen next year. Did the Mets anticipate that when they traded for Robbie?

[beck72]

That is exactly the type of SS we need to acquire.  Not a 38 year old relic to "build" around.

I never said to "build" around Vizquel. The Sox seem to be building around pitching, and I agree. If they add another SP and sign them to a 3yr deal ala Garcia, and get bullpen help, the sox money will be tied up with them.

 

With very strong SP, the Sox will need to play small ball, and get guys who can manufacture runs, play solid defense. Vizquel can do this well, and should for at least 2 more years, better than most guys who could be available [certainly on the FA market]

 

I wouldn't discount SS Wilson Valdez. He was acquired for next to nothing--Billy Koch.

[beck72]

But how long will it be till Vizquel has a Robbie Alomar type drop off in his production? It just may happen next year. Did the Mets anticipate that when they traded for Robbie?

Robbie cost the Mets 3 top prospects. Vizquel will come much cheaper, for only cash and probably for what Valentin will get from another team. He's not expected to carry the team. Just get on base and move runners over for the RBI's guys to drive in. Vizquel has played in almost all Cle's games this year. And is hitting as well as he's had all year, almost into Sept. With a good bench, the sox could give him a rest and keep him even fresher.

 

I know what your saying w/ re: to Robbie. [And Lofton, and Sandy] Yet Robbie looks and plays like he's 57. Vizquel looks like he's 27.

[Guest JimH]

I never said to "build" around Vizquel. The Sox seem to be building around pitching, and I agree. If they add another SP and sign them to a 3yr deal ala Garcia, and get bullpen help, the sox money will be tied up with them.

 

With very strong SP, the Sox will need to play small ball, and get guys who can manufacture runs, play solid defense. Vizquel can do this well, and should for at least 2 more years, better than most guys who could be available [certainly on the FA market]

 

I wouldn't discount SS Wilson Valdez. He was acquired for next to nothing--Billy Koch.

Yes, this is the point - the Sox wouldn't be building around Vizquel, they're building around pitching.

 

Let's suppose they sign Vizquel. If they're smart they don't count on him for 162 games at his age. That's where Uribe comes in. Uribe fills in at 2B too, and 3B since he's proven he can play that position this year.

 

Granted Vizquel will have a drop off at some point but he's very smart and when used correctly, can be very effective.

 

Personally, I would rather have Uribe as an insurance policy at three positions vs. giving him the full time gig at one. He is one hell of a substitute.

 

Lastly, I know everyone on this site has written off Robbie Alomar and you may be 100% correct. I'm not writing him off just yet, he's not been healthy this year and I think there's tremendous motivation for him to get healthy and be productive.

[beck72]

He's not a difference maker and that's what we need.

Those "difference makers", as can't miss prospects or FA's come at a great cost, and much greater risk. The Sox have taken a lot of risks the past few years. I'm just saying it makes sense for the Sox to take a less calculated risk on Vizquel who can help the Sox fill a hole. By no means is he a savior, but a solid addition.