FBI brings the hammer down on terror cell in Miami.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/06/22/miami.raids/index.html

 

 

[Gregory Pratt]

Indeed.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Anyone want to venture a guess if the Patriot Act/Wiretapping played a role in this?

[mr_genius]

Anyone want to venture a guess if the Patriot Act/Wiretapping played a role in this?

 

c'mon nuke. listening in on phone calls of the mafia is one thing. but listening in on those innocent, muslim freedom fighters? how dare you, you racist.

[minors]

Anyone want to venture a guess if the Patriot Act/Wiretapping played a role in this?

 

 

Yes it is that is wht I agree 110% with President Bush and domestic spying. With out it who knows how many attacks this country would have had.

 

 

President Bush

[WCSox]

Anyone want to venture a guess if the Patriot Act/Wiretapping played a role in this?

 

 

[Gregory Pratt]

Anyone want to venture a guess if the Patriot Act/Wiretapping played a role in this?

 

Yeah, I'll bite, if no one else will do anything but cheers it.

 

I'm willing to say that Foreign Intelligence, likely from the CIA or some other source, had more to do with this than Domestic Wiretapping for sure, and possibly than the Patriot Act.

Of course, I haven't got a single problem with the Patriot Act, but I don't like Domestic Wiretapping. My guess is so because we've caught plenty of terrorists before and broken up terrorist cells without the NSA Wiretapping Program, and without the Patriot Act. I'm sure we could very well do it again.

I'd bet that someone we have captured somewhere overseas has more to do with this than we do -- someone giving us a tip, perhaps, or someone we forced one out of.

 

I think it's petty to oversimplify this by saying, "LOL PATRIOT ACT I'LL DRINK TO THAT LOL!!"

 

You know what I'll drink to? The work of the FBI and the analysts at the CIA.

[WCSox]

Of course, I haven't got a single problem with the Patriot Act, but I don't like Domestic Wiretapping. My guess is so because we've caught plenty of terrorists before and broken up terrorist cells without the NSA Wiretapping Program, and without the Patriot Act. I'm sure we could very well do it again.

 

Yep, 9/11 and Oklahoma City clearly show that we were doing just great without the Patriot Act and wire-tapping programs. :rolly

 

I'd bet that someone we have captured somewhere overseas has more to do with this than we do -- someone giving us a tip, perhaps, or someone we forced one out of.

 

And I'd bet that the neighbors simply called the FBI after they saw a bunch of people in turbans conducting "training" on their premesis in the middle of the night.

 

Unfortunately, these morons and the shoe-bombing idiot are the exception. There are plenty of terrorists out there who have enough brain matter to carry out their plans conspicuously.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

1. Innocent until proven guilty. After they went 0 for 5,000 in their initial post-9/11 roundups claiming that people were terrorists/wanting to blow things up, I'm a bit hesitant in saying "OMG WE CAUGHT TEH TERRORISTS!!!11!11!1! ELEVENTY!"

 

2. I didn't see anything in the article pointing towards this "success" being attributed to the Unneeded Safeguard Abolition Preparing Americans To Readily Ignore Overt Totalitarianism Act (USA PATRIOT Act) or the illegal, warrantless wiretapping. What I did see rather was the "on-the-ground" intelligence being used with an undercover operative and good old detective work of getting information from neighbors.

 

The ends do not justify the means. If (and a big if) they did act in an illegal fashion (via warrantless taps, etc.) to gather information, it doesn't justify the illegal methods they used to elicit the information.

 

3. Gonzales said there never was an immediate threat to the alleged targets.

 

"We felt that the combination of the planning and the overt acts taken were sufficient to support this prosecution and that's why we took this action," Gonzales said. "There is no immediate threat ... part of the reason for that is because they didn't have the materials they requested, they didn't receive the weapons, at least we don't know of."

 

So, the organization wasn't an immediate threat, didn't have the materials and didn't have weapons. WTF kind of terrorist group is that? I mean, talk about f***ing lazy in getting off the boards.

 

If, and this is a big if, they actually prove that the people are guilty then hoo-f***ing-ray, we caught some terrorists and actually prosecuted them. But 'til then, color me a bit skeptical because the track record of claiming people are terrorists and actually convicting them of the charge has been really clear in the fact that the government often times fails to do so.

[Gregory Pratt]

Yep, 9/11 and Oklahoma City clearly show that we were doing just great without the Patriot Act and wire-tapping programs. :rolly

 

There you go again with the sanctimony.

 

Please, don't be an idiot. "LOLZ! WE'VE BEEN ATTACKED B4, BUT NO ATTACKS AFTER WE INSTITUTED PATACTANDWIRETAPZ! THAT MEANS WE BAD B4 BUT GR8 NOW!!"

 

I repeat: we have stopped terrorist attacks, and major ones, without the Patriot Act and Wiretapping.

All I said was that we've been able to stop terrorist attacks before without the Patriot Act/NSA Wiretaps, and that we could do it again.

 

When there's another terrorist attack on American soil -- and, inevitably, there will be -- should I stupidly roll my eyes and say, "LOLZ!! LOLZ!! PATACT AND WIRETAPZ NO WORK LOLZ!!" like you so flippantly dismiss past tactics?

 

And, finally, bringing up Oklahoma City is intellectually dishonest, as it's a different beast than 9/11.

 

And I'd bet that the neighbors simply called the FBI after they saw a bunch of people in turbans conducting "training" on their premesis in the middle of the night. Unfortunately, these morons and the shoe-bombing idiot are the exception. There are plenty of terrorists out there who have enough brain matter to carry out their plans conspicuously.

 

If that is what you think happened then you are a fool. Terrorists are far too smart for something like that.

 

1. Innocent until proven guilty. After they went 0 for 5,000 in their initial post-9/11 roundups claiming that people were terrorists/wanting to blow things up, I'm a bit hesitant in saying "OMG WE CAUGHT TEH TERRORISTS!!!11!11!1! ELEVENTY!"

 

2. I didn't see anything in the article pointing towards this "success" being attributed to the Unneeded Safeguard Abolition Preparing Americans To Readily Ignore Overt Totalitarianism Act (USA PATRIOT Act) or the illegal, warrantless wiretapping. What I did see rather was the "on-the-ground" intelligence being used with an undercover operative and good old detective work of getting information from neighbors.

 

The ends do not justify the means. If (and a big if) they did act in an illegal fashion (via warrantless taps, etc.) to gather information, it doesn't justify the illegal methods they used to elicit the information.

 

3. Gonzales said there never was an immediate threat to the alleged targets.

 

"We felt that the combination of the planning and the overt acts taken were sufficient to support this prosecution and that's why we took this action," Gonzales said. "There is no immediate threat ... part of the reason for that is because they didn't have the materials they requested, they didn't receive the weapons, at least we don't know of."

 

So, the organization wasn't an immediate threat, didn't have the materials and didn't have weapons. WTF kind of terrorist group is that? I mean, talk about f***ing lazy in getting off the boards.

 

If, and this is a big if, they actually prove that the people are guilty then hoo-f***ing-ray, we caught some terrorists and actually prosecuted them. But 'til then, color me a bit skeptical because the track record of claiming people are terrorists and actually convicting them of the charge has been really clear in the fact that the government often times fails to do so.

 

[WCSox]

Please, don't be an idiot.

 

Please, knock off the personal attacks.

 

If that is what you think happened then you are a fool. Terrorists are far too smart for something like that

 

Yeah, these guys were so brilliant that they aroused the suspicions of their neighbors.

 

Here are a few quotes from the CNN article...

 

Law enforcement sources told CNN that some of the suspects are members of a radical Muslim group and that at least one had taken "an al Qaeda oath."

 

So, at least one of them is a known terrorist. Strike one.

 

They had carried out surveillance on the Sears Tower and FBI building in Miami, the sources said.

 

This is in addition to conducting military-like training activities on their own premesis. Strike two.

 

one was an illegal immigrant from Haiti whose visa had expired

 

And one had alredy broken the law. Shocking!

 

The suspects believed they were dealing with an al Qaeda operative but the person was actually a government informant, the sources said.

 

... and they wanted to meet with an al Qaeda operative. Strike three.

 

Law enforcement sources told CNN that the arrests disrupted what may have been the early stages of a domestic terrorist plot to attack the Sears Tower in Chicago, Illinois, the FBI building in Miami, and possibly other targets.

 

Wow...

 

At the very least, these people should be charged with conspiracy. There's more than enough evidence to justifiably hold them until their trial.

 

If we have to wait until people like this actually obtain the explosives before making the arrests, we're not going to be able to effectively deal with terrorism.

Edited June 23, 2006 by WCSox

[Gregory Pratt]

Please, knock off the personal attacks.

 

Don't dismiss a perfectly valid point not with a rebuttal but with a eye-rolling icon and I won't request that you not be an idiot.

[YASNY]

Don't dismiss a perfectly valid point not with a rebuttal but with a eye-rolling icon and I won't request that you not be an idiot.

 

Watch yourself.

[Gregory Pratt]

As far as this case goes, I believe that Nuke's article itself says that they were merely in the beginning stages, and that Gonzales himself has dismissed the imminence of this threat.

 

They should be arrested and charged, to be sure. But let's not declare mission accomplished and act as if we stopped something set to happen tomorrow or even soon.

 

This is the abortion of a young plot, not the disruption of something developed.

[YASNY]

As far as this case goes, I believe that Nuke's article itself says that they were merely in the beginning stages, and that Gonzales himself has dismissed the imminence of this threat.

 

They should be arrested and charged, to be sure. But let's not declare mission accomplished and act as if we stopped something set to happen tomorrow or even soon.

 

This is the abortion of a young plot, not the disruption of something developed.

 

Hmmm. This kind of sounds to me that our people were right on top of things and nipped it in the bud before the plan had time to germinate. Someone's doing a damn good job.

[WCSox]

Watch yourself.

 

Thank you.

 

As far as this case goes, I believe that Nuke's article itself says that they were merely in the beginning stages, and that Gonzales himself has dismissed the imminence of this threat.

 

They should be arrested and charged, to be sure. But let's not declare mission accomplished and act as if we stopped something set to happen tomorrow or even soon.

 

This is the abortion of a young plot, not the disruption of something developed.

 

The evidence strongly suggests that we stopped a terrorist attack in its planning stages. That's exactly what we want.

[Gregory Pratt]

The evidence strongly suggests that we stopped a terrorist attack in its planning stages. That's exactly what we want.

 

By all means, it's a positive, but I believe my objection came in saying, "OUR WIRETAPPING AND PATRIOT ACT DID THIS!" when there are so many other likelier possibilities.

 

Hmmm. This kind of sounds to me that our people were right on top of things and nipped it in the bud before the plan had time to germinate. Someone's doing a damn good job.

 

I didn't say that our people weren't right on top of things, and I'm glad we stopped the plan in its baby stages, but I'd point out that, with the nature of al-Qaeda, stopping something in its baby stages doesn't mean you've accomplished much as they are the types who change plans often, especially in the baby stages.

 

But, as I just said, I believe my objections in this post came to people calling out the PATACT and Wiretaps as the reason for such an arrest.

[YASNY]

By all means, it's a positive, but I believe my objection came in saying, "OUR WIRETAPPING AND PATRIOT ACT DID THIS!" when there are so many other likelier possibilities.

I didn't say that our people weren't right on top of things, and I'm glad we stopped the plan in its baby stages, but I'd point out that, with the nature of al-Qaeda, stopping something in its baby stages doesn't mean you've accomplished much as they are the types who change plans often, especially in the baby stages.

 

But, as I just said, I believe my objections in this post came to people calling out the PATACT and Wiretaps as the reason for such an arrest.

 

I'll give you that point.

[WCSox]

By all means, it's a positive, but I believe my objection came in saying, "OUR WIRETAPPING AND PATRIOT ACT DID THIS!" when there are so many other likelier possibilities.

 

It's no less probable than your assertion that the information came from an overseas informant.

 

As I said before, it's likely that one of the neighbors simply called the FBI when the suspicious activities began. The Patriot act and/or wiretapping very well may have not played a role in this case. Then again, not all terrorists are this sloppy and conspicuous. People like McVeigh/Nichols and the Middle Eastern men who planned/carried out their respective terrorist attacks (right here in America) certainly weren't.

[Gregory Pratt]

It's no less probable than your assertion that the information came from an overseas informant.

 

As I said before, it's likely that one of the neighbors simply called the FBI when the suspicious activities began. The Patriot act and/or wiretapping very well may have not played a role in this case. Then again, not all terrorists are this sloppy and conspicuous. People like McVeigh/Nichols and the Middle Eastern men who planned/carried out their respective terrorist attacks (right here in America) certainly weren't.

 

That wasn't exactly my point.

 

I'd bet that someone we have captured somewhere overseas has more to do with this than we do -- someone giving us a tip, perhaps, or someone we forced one out of.

 

We have had informants. If you read the news about al-Qaeda dropping a chemical weapons attack forty five days before -- it was in The One Percent Doctrine thread -- you'd see that we DO have a spy in al-Qaeda.

 

But I also said that someone giving us a tip, or someone we forced one out of. Perhaps someone at Gitmo, or in one of our prisons. There are all sorts of situations.

 

In the past, additionally, we have gotten great assistance from Canadian authorities in disrupting plots. See the 2000 plots. So who knows.

 

All I'm saying is that it's a stretch, and a political one, to say, "WIRETAPS AND PATRIOT ACT DID IT!" when, historically, there've been so many other things that have stopped attacks.

 

I do think it's possible that the FBI received a tip from a neighbor. I think it's far likelier than, "Bush's programs paid off all hail his wisdom!"

[WCSox]

I do think it's possible that the FBI received a tip from a neighbor. I think it's far likelier than, "Bush's programs paid off all hail his wisdom!"

 

Political spin aside, I agree.

[Gregory Pratt]

Political spin aside, I agree.

 

No, no, I agree. It was your point, and idea, after all.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Hmmm. This kind of sounds to me that our people were right on top of things and nipped it in the bud before the plan had time to germinate. Someone's doing a damn good job.

 

 

DING!

 

 

Someone gets it.

 

 

Of course you have leftists like LCR who assume that someone is harmless until he lights the fuse and the building comes crashing down. Even then he'd probably be looking over his notes and scanning his websites looking for some imaginative way of saying the terrorists are innocent. That and the attacks are really our own fault for oppressing Muslims ( He sounds a lot like Bin Laden and Zawahiri when he talks like that too ).

 

By all means, it's a positive, but I believe my objection came in saying, "OUR WIRETAPPING AND PATRIOT ACT DID THIS!" when there are so many other likelier possibilities.

I didn't say that our people weren't right on top of things, and I'm glad we stopped the plan in its baby stages, but I'd point out that, with the nature of al-Qaeda, stopping something in its baby stages doesn't mean you've accomplished much as they are the types who change plans often, especially in the baby stages.

 

But, as I just said, I believe my objections in this post came to people calling out the PATACT and Wiretaps as the reason for such an arrest.

 

 

I didn't give credit to wiretapping and the Patriot Act for this bust. All I did was to invite people to speculate about whether they were a factor or not.

[Gregory Pratt]

I didn't give credit to wiretapping and the Patriot Act for this bust. All I did was to invite people to speculate about whether they were a factor or not.

 

Never said you did, Nuke.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Looks like it was some good ol fashioned HUMINT that helped collar these guys.

 

 

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/06/23/miami.raids/index.html

 

 

Narseal Batiste, considered the recruiter of the group, according to the document, tried to reach out to al Qaeda by contacting someone who was an FBI operative posing as a member of the terrorist network.