Removing the Fourteenth Amendment

[Quin]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kamala-d-har...f_b_677090.html

 

Lindsay Graham and Mitch McConnell want to look at eliminating the fourteenth amendment

 

It's an election year, and so we're accustomed to hearing typical hyperbole from politicians. But even the most jaded observers of our politics were troubled by the latest head-scratcher from Senator Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.). The Senate Minority Leader suggested, without irony or humor, that Congress "ought to take a look at" eliminating the Fourteenth Amendment's guarantee of citizenship to every natural-born American. He, and others in the punditsphere, believe that the Fourteenth Amendment is a problem because illegal immigrants come to this country unlawfully and then have children who are American citizens.

 

Wouldn't removing the fourteenth amendment technically make it so that anyone born in the US period is an illegal immigrant?

[ChiSox_Sonix]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kamala-d-har...f_b_677090.html

 

Lindsay Graham and Mitch McConnell want to look at eliminating the fourteenth amendment

 

 

 

Wouldn't removing the fourteenth amendment technically make it so that anyone born in the US period is an illegal immigrant?

 

First off, it said this:

 

eliminating the Fourteenth Amendment's guarantee of citizenship to every natural-born American.

 

That doesn't mean the entire amendment. There are several clauses in the 14th amendment, not just the citizenship one.

 

And secondly to the bolded, no it wouldn't. The clause was added to ensure that freed slaves and their children were guaranteed citizenship. Prior to this, if you were born to American parent(s) you were a citizen.

 

And frankly, I'd have no problem with tweaking this a bit, because after everyone get's done complaining about it, the thought behind makes sense. It has definitely been exploited in ways this was not meant for in recent years.

 

[Sox72]

First off, it said this:

 

 

 

That doesn't mean the entire amendment. There are several clauses in the 14th amendment, not just the citizenship one.

 

And secondly to the bolded, no it wouldn't. The clause was added to ensure that freed slaves and their children were guaranteed citizenship. Prior to this, if you were born to American parent(s) you were a citizen.

 

And frankly, I'd have no problem with tweaking this a bit, because after everyone get's done complaining about it, the thought behind makes sense. It has definitely been exploited in ways this was not meant for in recent years.

 

As has every single part of the Constitution. There's no getting around it. The Supreme Court is restricted in using a lot of different parts for various different reasons and has to be creative in what they use......i.e. the Commerce Clause and Spending Clause.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

I agree with ChiSox_Sonix on this one. Its really not as crazy as it seems to ask the question, does anyone and everyone born here automatically get citizenship? I don't see how that's a bad discussion to have.

 

 

[Quin]

First off, it said this:

 

 

 

That doesn't mean the entire amendment. There are several clauses in the 14th amendment, not just the citizenship one.

 

And secondly to the bolded, no it wouldn't. The clause was added to ensure that freed slaves and their children were guaranteed citizenship. Prior to this, if you were born to American parent(s) you were a citizen.

 

And frankly, I'd have no problem with tweaking this a bit, because after everyone get's done complaining about it, the thought behind makes sense. It has definitely been exploited in ways this was not meant for in recent years.

 

Regarding the bolded, I was unsure on how it would effect it since back then they didn't have citizenship rules (as far as I knew). Now I do.

 

I'm honestly on the fence for this one.

 

On one hand, it prevents people from being born here and just leaving and maybe coming back.

 

On the other, some come back to work and live here as a legalized citizen and I can't see much wrong with that.

[Balta1701]

Undoubtedly, citizenship plays some role in the decisions by undocumented immigrants to come to the U.S. After all, they have made a decision to make their future in the United States rather than in their home country, and part of building a better life in the U.S. is having citizenship for their children. But on Fox, Graham termed the practice "drop and leave," which suggests that illegal immigrants are coming here for the primary purpose of having babies with citizenship, then rushing home to wherever they came from.

 

Graham's comments on this are misleading. While that does appear to be happening with affluent "birth tourists," it's important to understand that those affluent "birth tourists" are not the ones illegally crossing the Rio Grande or the Sonoran desert. They are coming here with the proper legal papers and giving birth. Thus, whatever public policy challenges arise from "birth tourism" are separate and distinct from the public policy challenges of illegal immigration -- which is not at all the impression that Graham gave in his Fox appearance.

 

Graham tacitly acknowledged this distinction in his follow-up appearance on Van Susteren's show on Aug. 3, 2010, saying, "You have found and I've provided you information about groups that are marketing to Chinese, and Mideastern and European families a 90-day visa package, where you come to America as a tourist. You come to a resort. You have your child at a hospital within the resort. That child is an American citizen. You turn around and leave." But raising this example days later strikes us as an after-the-fact justification.

 

So let's recap.

 

It's true that many illegal immigrants are having children in the U.S. However, we are not convinced that "drop and leave" is a phenomenon. The data suggests that the motivator for illegal immigrants is the search for work and a better economic standing over the long term, not quickie citizenship for U.S.-born babies. Graham appears to be conflating two things -- a pattern of wealthy foreigners engaging in "birth tourism" using legal visas, and illegal immigration of poorer people from Mexico. In our view, failing to make the distinction exaggerates the alleged problem and uses inflammatory rhetoric to obscure legitimate policy questions. On balance, we rate his comment Half True.

Politifact link

[Jenksismyhero]

Politifact link

 

So, basically what he says is true? What a crappy article. It's misleading because he doesn't have concrete numbers? How could he?

 

IMO this is just one of many steps that is needed to overhaul the immigration system.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Jenksismybitch

[Balta1701]

So, basically what he says is true? What a crappy article. It's misleading because he doesn't have concrete numbers? How could he?

 

IMO this is just one of many steps that is needed to overhaul the immigration system.

Let me turn this around then...changing the Constitution, or even attempting to overhaul how we interpret a phrase like that is, by all accounts, a major overhaul.

 

If you can't provide concrete, unchallengeable numbers to justify that it should be done, then isn't the default, conservative position that we shouldn't change anything?

 

For example...is the power to deny citizenship to people based on limited standards a power you genuinely want the Federal government to have?

[Jenksismyhero]

Let me turn this around then...changing the Constitution, or even attempting to overhaul how we interpret a phrase like that is, by all accounts, a major overhaul.

 

If you can't provide concrete, unchallengeable numbers to justify that it should be done, then isn't the default, conservative position that we shouldn't change anything?

 

For example...is the power to deny citizenship to people based on limited standards a power you genuinely want the Federal government to have?

 

It's not about interpreting any phrase, it's asking whether we want to grant someone citizenship merely because they were born here. As NSS said, that's a discussion that I think is a good one to have. And he gave concrete examples, citing the "resort" system that exists. Just because we don't know the precise number of people doing this every year doesn't mean we don't know that it happens.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by the bolded. What is a "limited standard?" As a liberal, you're well aware that the Federal government can do (and does) anything it wants, regardless of how many facts or statistics they have to back up its claims. You know, like the executive arbitrarily demanding a private company cough up 2 billion dollars for a disaster it created, despite the fact that the government had/has no idea how much damage has been caused.

[HuskyCaucasian]

Apparently there is a movement to repeal the 17th amendment... the direct election of senators.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Athomeboy_2000

[Balta1701]

It's not about interpreting any phrase, it's asking whether we want to grant someone citizenship merely because they were born here. As NSS said, that's a discussion that I think is a good one to have. And he gave concrete examples, citing the "resort" system that exists. Just because we don't know the precise number of people doing this every year doesn't mean we don't know that it happens.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by the bolded. What is a "limited standard?" As a liberal, you're well aware that the Federal government can do (and does) anything it wants, regardless of how many facts or statistics they have to back up its claims. You know, like the executive arbitrarily demanding a private company cough up 2 billion dollars for a disaster it created, despite the fact that the government had/has no idea how much damage has been caused.

Here's what I mean by a limited standard...who gets to decide how long you have to be in this country before you can have a child that's a citizen? You want to ban citizenship for "Anchor babies"...do we also ban citizenship for people whose parents have been here for 15 years but are illegal workers? (or does that only happen next election cycle). Or do we realize that a number of birth tourists come here on legal Visas for school or work and decide that they're happy with their children being citizens? Some of those countries are dirty too, or even filled with Muslims!

 

There are, right now, enough children of illegal immigrants in high schools and colleges in this country who were brought here by their parents that there's a bill out there that would allow specifically them a path to legalization.

 

Furthermore, let's not pretend that there are no issues created by denying citizenship to infants. Denial of health care, cutting off of food, cutting off of education...a malnourished group of ill infants isn't exactly conducive to economic growth.

 

There's always going to be a choice of where to draw the line regarding which disliked group we want to exclude this week. That's my point regarding little-c conservatism there...once you give the Federal Government the power to move that line, you're going to find out that someday, you're unhappy with where that line moves.

[southsider2k5]

It's not about interpreting any phrase, it's asking whether we want to grant someone citizenship merely because they were born here. As NSS said, that's a discussion that I think is a good one to have. And he gave concrete examples, citing the "resort" system that exists. Just because we don't know the precise number of people doing this every year doesn't mean we don't know that it happens.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by the bolded. What is a "limited standard?" As a liberal, you're well aware that the Federal government can do (and does) anything it wants, regardless of how many facts or statistics they have to back up its claims. You know, like the executive arbitrarily demanding a private company cough up 2 billion dollars for a disaster it created, despite the fact that the government had/has no idea how much damage has been caused.

 

It was 20, not 2.

[Soxbadger]

People should be granted citizenship just because they are born here.

 

People should be able to build a Mosque next to the site of the Twin Towers. (eventhough its not really next to the site)

 

We once were a city upon a hill, where we were the model of free society. But we inch closer to being nothing more than what we allegedly despise.

 

Everyone who is born in America, deserves to be a citizen. But then again I believe the the idea of America was to be a place where those who are persecuted, those who seek a better life, would be free to join whenever they please. I dont agree with immigration quotas, I dont agree with refusing to allow people to come to America to seek a better life.

 

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

 

I understand that people want to have advantages and not let other people immigrate here and potentially compete with them for jobs and benefits. But is that not the American way? Are we not capitalists? Do we not believe in competition and that the hardest and best working will rise to the top?

 

To me that is America. And it actually bothers me to see that people can claim to care about freedom, equality, etc. but at the same time do everything in their power to prevent all people from having that.

 

 

[whitesoxfan101]

People should be granted citizenship just because they are born here.

 

People should be able to build a Mosque next to the site of the Twin Towers. (eventhough its not really next to the site)

 

We once were a city upon a hill, where we were the model of free society. But we inch closer to being nothing more than what we allegedly despise.

 

Everyone who is born in America, deserves to be a citizen. But then again I believe the the idea of America was to be a place where those who are persecuted, those who seek a better life, would be free to join whenever they please. I dont agree with immigration quotas, I dont agree with refusing to allow people to come to America to seek a better life.

 

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

 

I understand that people want to have advantages and not let other people immigrate here and potentially compete with them for jobs and benefits. But is that not the American way? Are we not capitalists? Do we not believe in competition and that the hardest and best working will rise to the top?

 

To me that is America. And it actually bothers me to see that people can claim to care about freedom, equality, etc. but at the same time do everything in their power to prevent all people from having that.

 

*applause*

[NorthSideSox72]

People should be granted citizenship just because they are born here.

 

People should be able to build a Mosque next to the site of the Twin Towers. (eventhough its not really next to the site)

 

We once were a city upon a hill, where we were the model of free society. But we inch closer to being nothing more than what we allegedly despise.

 

Everyone who is born in America, deserves to be a citizen. But then again I believe the the idea of America was to be a place where those who are persecuted, those who seek a better life, would be free to join whenever they please. I dont agree with immigration quotas, I dont agree with refusing to allow people to come to America to seek a better life.

 

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

 

I understand that people want to have advantages and not let other people immigrate here and potentially compete with them for jobs and benefits. But is that not the American way? Are we not capitalists? Do we not believe in competition and that the hardest and best working will rise to the top?

 

To me that is America. And it actually bothers me to see that people can claim to care about freedom, equality, etc. but at the same time do everything in their power to prevent all people from having that.

I applaud your post and your passion. But really, I don't think people are seriously discussing changing anything other than the aspect of the rule that allows illegal immigrants to have children here who become citizens. And I don't see how that changes any of what you are fearing will change.

 

Now, if the desire grows to change anything more than that, I might be with you.

 

[jasonxctf]

besides terrorist babies... can someone explain the harm of someone being born in this country and then leaving immediately?

 

Also, do people really think that they'll get...

 

- 288 votes in the US House

plus

- 67 votes in the US Senate

plus

- 38 states ratification

[HuskyCaucasian]

besides terrorist babies... can someone explain the harm of someone being born in this country and then leaving immediately?

 

Also, do people really think that they'll get...

 

- 288 votes in the US House

plus

- 67 votes in the US Senate

plus

- 38 states ratification

of course they'll never get the votes. But it's a great "talking point" to rally the anti-immigrant conservative base during an election season.

[kjshoe04]

People should be granted citizenship just because they are born here.

 

People should be able to build a Mosque next to the site of the Twin Towers. (eventhough its not really next to the site)

 

We once were a city upon a hill, where we were the model of free society. But we inch closer to being nothing more than what we allegedly despise.

 

Everyone who is born in America, deserves to be a citizen. But then again I believe the the idea of America was to be a place where those who are persecuted, those who seek a better life, would be free to join whenever they please. I dont agree with immigration quotas, I dont agree with refusing to allow people to come to America to seek a better life.

 

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

 

I understand that people want to have advantages and not let other people immigrate here and potentially compete with them for jobs and benefits. But is that not the American way? Are we not capitalists? Do we not believe in competition and that the hardest and best working will rise to the top?

 

To me that is America. And it actually bothers me to see that people can claim to care about freedom, equality, etc. but at the same time do everything in their power to prevent all people from having that.

Yes. Thank You. Why shouldn't someone born here get citizenship?

 

[bmags]

Because there's more to being american than being born here! you must also be living in the "bible belt", be salt of the earth, christian or Jews for Jesus, and tend to be...well, I'm getting ahead of myself. But, the point is everyone else is just sucking on the teets that the real Americans LITERALLY MILK EVERY DAY.

[whitesoxfan101]

Because there's more to being american than being born here! you must also be living in the "bible belt", be salt of the earth, christian or Jews for Jesus, and tend to be...well, I'm getting ahead of myself. But, the point is everyone else is just sucking on the teets that the real Americans LITERALLY MILK EVERY DAY.

 

 

You're like the antithesis to kapkomet at times. I like it.

[knightni]

Because there's more to being american than being born here! you must also be living in the "bible belt", be salt of the earth, christian or Jews for Jesus, and tend to be...well, I'm getting ahead of myself. But, the point is everyone else is just sucking on the teets that the real Americans LITERALLY MILK EVERY DAY.

America is a literal cow?

[NorthSideSox72]

Because there's more to being american than being born here! you must also be living in the "bible belt", be salt of the earth, christian or Jews for Jesus, and tend to be...well, I'm getting ahead of myself. But, the point is everyone else is just sucking on the teets that the real Americans LITERALLY MILK EVERY DAY.

Yes, because that's exactly what I was thinking when I said what I did.

 

[bmags]

Yes, because that's exactly what I was thinking when I said what I did.

take it personal, kap

[NorthSideSox72]

take it personal, kap

I just think its funny that this is one of those topics where being reasonable, or trying to come up with a positive change instead of going all out one way or the other, seems to be impossible.

 

[whitesoxfan101]

I just think its funny that this is one of those topics where being reasonable, or trying to come up with a positive change instead of going all out one way or the other, seems to be impossible.

 

Haha that's how political discussion almost always tends to work, and you know that.