The return of TCQ

[witesoxfan]

I make this thread not because Quentin hit 3 home runs and was the main reason the White Sox won yesterday/today's game, but instead because of a mechanical adjustment I've noticed in his swing that has been generally absent since that season.

 

Quentin has always had a bit of a jerky swing and he tends to dance a bit at the plate and he's always reminded me a lot of Jose Canseco (without the use of performance enhancers, in all likelihood). He's gone through a number of different stances and approaches throughout the years with mixed results throughout. He was obviously most successful in 2008 and I saw a lot of similarities in his swing tonight to the one he had in 2008.

 

In 2008, Quentin used a crouched, open stance and only used a single foot tap to time the pitcher. He also kept his bat relatively parallel to the ground.

2008 Video

 

In 2009, he retained the crouch, but closed up a bit and added an additional foot tap to his swing. He also increased the angle at which he held the bat. Other than the crouch, I don't like any of those adjustments.

2009 Video

 

In 2010, he stood up a bit more at the plate, but stayed closed at the plate and kept the double foot tap. I don't really care for any of those either. He had a 16 game stretch where his OPS was about 1.700 or something along those lines - no real exaggeration - but was otherwise pretty terrible. Further, he was also standing straighter as the year went on, which is easy to see when comparing the video in July to the video in September. However, he was again holding the bat relatively parallel to the ground, which I think is where he should be holding it. I'll explain later.

July 5, 2010

September 29, 2010

 

And then, here he is yesterday/today.

 

He's once again in the crouched stance, slightly open, holding the bat parallel to the ground, and he has gone back to the single foot tap.

 

With regards to his stance at the plate, I think the crouched position allows him to drive the ball better and even get a little bit of lift when coming through the ball largely because it involves his legs much more and increases the power of the lever within the swing. As you crouch at the plate and swing, you are increasing the distance which the bat travels because you increase the size of the semi-circular path which the bat travels through, so you have to turn your hips faster to get around. So long as the bat speed is sufficient, which Quentin's is, this is preferred. It also allows you to get to low pitches better, though leaves you more prone than usual to missing high fastballs. However, considering most pitchers pitch down in the zone, you should do what will give you the best chance of making good contact. Considering that point, it makes sense that he set a career high in FB% last year while standing virtually straight up - he has an extreme upper cut when he swings, so those pitches low in the zone were hit off the end of the bat and usually into the left fielder's glove (though a lot of time, he hit them into infielders' gloves too, as shown by his 14.1% IFFB% last year). I think he prefers crouching too, which is why he's generally done it 3 of the past 4 years, which leads me to believe that he was, to some extent, injured last year and couldn't get into his crouch without aggravating his injury. I think this is evidenced by the fact that he is standing even straighter as the year went on. He could have also been tinkering with his swing a bit too because the Sox had long been eliminated by that point in time last year.

 

I like that he is holding the bat parallel as opposed to angled up, as he did in 2009. It would seem to me that holding the bat at that high of an angle would increase the likelihood of hitting a very, very high flyball, which most of the time end up in outfielders' gloves (or sometimes even infielders' gloves). Quentin's always been a flyball hitter, but his FB% of 47.2 and IsoFB% (subtracting IFFB from FB) was 37.3% were the second highest and highest of his career (though his current ratios blow those away, though it's extremely unlikely they remain). He did hit a ton of line drives that year, so some of his struggles that year were due to tough luck. Again, I wonder if he was holding the bat so high in 2009 due to pain or discomfort in his wrist.

 

I am a big believer in being open as you stand at the plate, as it gives you a better view of the pitcher. The problem is that, to create the power, you either have to increase the torque with which you rotate your hips, ala Jose Bautista, or you have to bring your foot back over, which Quentin does. This can cause some head movement, which will also cause you to simply lose sight of the ball and miss. The best example I can think of is Tony Batista, and the fact that he was an overly anxious hitter didn't help him at all. So, because it causes head movement, you need something by which you can time the pitcher.

 

That leads me to the single foot tap, which I honestly think is the most important change he's made. Having the single foot tap actually appears to keep him on the ball longer, as he plants the foot and waits for the pitch. In 2009 and 2010, with the double foot tap, he would plant the second foot and would swing almost immediately, which, a lot of times, either leaves him out in front or behind pitches. By simply cutting out that additional foot tap, he makes him a more patient hitter and allows him to time the pitcher more. This is clearly evidenced by his first and second homers tonight...last year, he would have been way out in front of that first breaking ball Holland threw and would have hooked it into the stands, and Hawk would talk about right size, wrong shape. But, by only having the single foot tap and waiting for it, he was able to keep it fair and hook it over the fence. On the second homer, he was again able to allow the ball to get deep into the zone before pulling the trigger and by doing so, was again able to keep the ball fair...the previous 2 seasons, that ball would have either been fought off or simply missed because the second tap would have slowed him way, way down and gotten him behind the pitch. His third homer would have been gone in any of the previous 4 seasons, mostly because it was a hanging breaking pitch from a bad pitcher.

 

Quentin looked really good at the plate tonight and he needs to continue to be physically patient because that will allow him to be "baseball" patient at the plate, drawing walks and working counts and it will continue to allow him the ability to let the ball get deep into the zone before swinging, which will result in a lot of home runs. He's on pace to hit like 35 homers after yesterday/today's game, that is an extremely attainable goal, and it will help the Sox win a lot of games. Without that single foot tap, the Sox lose the game and the series and would be hoping to avoid a sweep today. If the Sox do get back into the race, he's going to be a big reason why.

[JohnCangelosi]

I make this thread not because Quentin hit 3 home runs and was the main reason the White Sox won yesterday/today's game, but instead because of a mechanical adjustment I've noticed in his swing that has been generally absent since that season.

 

Quentin has always had a bit of a jerky swing and he tends to dance a bit at the plate and he's always reminded me a lot of Jose Canseco (without the use of performance enhancers, in all likelihood). He's gone through a number of different stances and approaches throughout the years with mixed results throughout. He was obviously most successful in 2008 and I saw a lot of similarities in his swing tonight to the one he had in 2008.

 

In 2008, Quentin used a crouched, open stance and only used a single foot tap to time the pitcher. He also kept his bat relatively parallel to the ground.

2008 Video

 

In 2009, he retained the crouch, but closed up a bit and added an additional foot tap to his swing. He also increased the angle at which he held the bat. Other than the crouch, I don't like any of those adjustments.

2009 Video

 

In 2010, he stood up a bit more at the plate, but stayed closed at the plate and kept the double foot tap. I don't really care for any of those either. He had a 16 game stretch where his OPS was about 1.700 or something along those lines - no real exaggeration - but was otherwise pretty terrible. Further, he was also standing straighter as the year went on, which is easy to see when comparing the video in July to the video in September. However, he was again holding the bat relatively parallel to the ground, which I think is where he should be holding it. I'll explain later.

July 5, 2010

September 29, 2010

 

And then, here he is yesterday/today.

 

He's once again in the crouched stance, slightly open, holding the bat parallel to the ground, and he has gone back to the single foot tap.

 

With regards to his stance at the plate, I think the crouched position allows him to drive the ball better and even get a little bit of lift when coming through the ball largely because it involves his legs much more and increases the power of the lever within the swing. As you crouch at the plate and swing, you are increasing the distance which the bat travels because you increase the size of the semi-circular path which the bat travels through, so you have to turn your hips faster to get around. So long as the bat speed is sufficient, which Quentin's is, this is preferred. It also allows you to get to low pitches better, though leaves you more prone than usual to missing high fastballs. However, considering most pitchers pitch down in the zone, you should do what will give you the best chance of making good contact. Considering that point, it makes sense that he set a career high in FB% last year while standing virtually straight up - he has an extreme upper cut when he swings, so those pitches low in the zone were hit off the end of the bat and usually into the left fielder's glove (though a lot of time, he hit them into infielders' gloves too, as shown by his 14.1% IFFB% last year). I think he prefers crouching too, which is why he's generally done it 3 of the past 4 years, which leads me to believe that he was, to some extent, injured last year and couldn't get into his crouch without aggravating his injury. I think this is evidenced by the fact that he is standing even straighter as the year went on. He could have also been tinkering with his swing a bit too because the Sox had long been eliminated by that point in time last year.

 

I like that he is holding the bat parallel as opposed to angled up, as he did in 2009. It would seem to me that holding the bat at that high of an angle would increase the likelihood of hitting a very, very high flyball, which most of the time end up in outfielders' gloves (or sometimes even infielders' gloves). Quentin's always been a flyball hitter, but his FB% of 47.2 and IsoFB% (subtracting IFFB from FB) was 37.3% were the second highest and highest of his career (though his current ratios blow those away, though it's extremely unlikely they remain). He did hit a ton of line drives that year, so some of his struggles that year were due to tough luck. Again, I wonder if he was holding the bat so high in 2009 due to pain or discomfort in his wrist.

 

I am a big believer in being open as you stand at the plate, as it gives you a better view of the pitcher. The problem is that, to create the power, you either have to increase the torque with which you rotate your hips, ala Jose Bautista, or you have to bring your foot back over, which Quentin does. This can cause some head movement, which will also cause you to simply lose sight of the ball and miss. The best example I can think of is Tony Batista, and the fact that he was an overly anxious hitter didn't help him at all. So, because it causes head movement, you need something by which you can time the pitcher.

 

That leads me to the single foot tap, which I honestly think is the most important change he's made. Having the single foot tap actually appears to keep him on the ball longer, as he plants the foot and waits for the pitch. In 2009 and 2010, with the double foot tap, he would plant the second foot and would swing almost immediately, which, a lot of times, either leaves him out in front or behind pitches. By simply cutting out that additional foot tap, he makes him a more patient hitter and allows him to time the pitcher more. This is clearly evidenced by his first and second homers tonight...last year, he would have been way out in front of that first breaking ball Holland threw and would have hooked it into the stands, and Hawk would talk about right size, wrong shape. But, by only having the single foot tap and waiting for it, he was able to keep it fair and hook it over the fence. On the second homer, he was again able to allow the ball to get deep into the zone before pulling the trigger and by doing so, was again able to keep the ball fair...the previous 2 seasons, that ball would have either been fought off or simply missed because the second tap would have slowed him way, way down and gotten him behind the pitch. His third homer would have been gone in any of the previous 4 seasons, mostly because it was a hanging breaking pitch from a bad pitcher.

 

Quentin looked really good at the plate tonight and he needs to continue to be physically patient because that will allow him to be "baseball" patient at the plate, drawing walks and working counts and it will continue to allow him the ability to let the ball get deep into the zone before swinging, which will result in a lot of home runs. He's on pace to hit like 35 homers after yesterday/today's game, that is an extremely attainable goal, and it will help the Sox win a lot of games. Without that single foot tap, the Sox lose the game and the series and would be hoping to avoid a sweep today. If the Sox do get back into the race, he's going to be a big reason why.

 

Great post. We need TCQ in the 3rd slot this year and him to be close to the 2008 version to have a chance this year, especially given the fact that Pierre, Dunn, Rios and Beckham haven't decided to play just yet.

 

[balfanman]

Fire Greg Walker !!!

 

 

Seriously, How much credit does Greg Walker get for this? Maybe he is useful after all.

[Lillian]

What a thoughtful and well reasoned post. It was very interesting. Thanks

 

I'm just thrilled to see him hitting third in the lineup. I've been arguing for that all year.

It just reinforces how bad Dunn has been. He's had the benefit of batting in front of Konerko and Quentin all season, and hasn't been able to capitalize on the opportunity.

Carlos is a prototypical #3 hitter, and I hope that Ozzie realizes that, although he was quoted yesterday as saying that he intends to put Dunn back in that spot, as soon as he starts hitting. How frustrating?

At this point, Dunn's only value is to break up the string of right handed hitters. Even then, the hole in the lineup that he represents may offset that benefit.

[JohnCangelosi]

Fire Greg Walker !!!

 

 

Seriously, How much credit does Greg Walker get for this? Maybe he is useful after all.

 

Not to hijack the thread but...

 

I wish Walk would get Beckham back to this swing:

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=5277447

 

Can you do a breakdown on this swing (2009) versus his current one? I mean, this swing was just SO SWEET. Short, quick, and seemingly he could cover anything that anyone threw at him. I legitimately thought we had a star within the first month of watching Gordo. Why can't Walker get him back to this place?

 

Edit: here is another AWESOME shot of that great swing GB had in 2009:

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=6428277

 

Now he looks totally different up there....total joke.

Edited May 25, 2011 by JohnCangelosi

[Kyyle23]

Not to hijack the thread but...

 

I wish Walk would get Beckham back to this swing:

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=5277447

 

Can you do a breakdown on this swing (2009) versus his current one? I mean, this swing was just SO SWEET. Short, quick, and seemingly he could cover anything that anyone threw at him. I legitimately thought we had a star within the first month of watching Gordo. Why can't Walker get him back to this place?

 

Edit: here is another AWESOME shot of that great swing GB had in 2009:

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=6428277

 

Now he looks totally different up there....total joke.

 

 

Beckham had a really good may, didnt he?

[southsider2k5]

Nice post Wite. Q just looked dangerous last night. If he is hitting line drives, he is going to win us a lot of games.

[JohnCangelosi]

Beckham had a really good may, didnt he?

Not yet. There's still 5 days left and I want to see him start hitting the ball with authority to the gaps again, that game is rarely seen from him any longer

[Steve9347]

If Carlos Quentin is indeed "bacK", then we're in for a very interesting remainder of the season. A "good" Carlos Quentin is an amazing baseball player offensively.

[fathom]

Not yet. There's still 5 days left and I want to see him start hitting the ball with authority to the gaps again, that game is rarely seen from him any longer

 

And he's had an awful lot of flares to right that have dropped in this month to boost his average. I can remember maybe 6 or 7 actual hard hit balls for Beckham this month.

[justBLAZE]

Not following the Sox as much as I want but isn't Quentins defense a whole lot better this year compared to last year? For someone that was a 'natural' RF, he was god awful last year. Maybe another hint at injury ?

[elrockinMT]

I wonder how much the injries affected him in the past. I think a lot especially the foot problem

[Milkman delivers]

Like. Great post.

[chetkincaid]

I wonder how much the injries affected him in the past. I think a lot especially the foot problem

 

 

Probably a lot more than we're aware of. I'm sure the guy got tired of people calling him injury prone. I'd bet that the White Sox covered up the fact that he was hurting too.

[maggsmaggs]

When he is on, he can single handedly carry a lineup.

[witesoxfan]

Just as an addendum, it's very easy to me to see why hitters can find a zone for a while and then lose it from year to year. I personally think Quentin looks really awkward at the plate in his 3 homer game, like he is almost physically uncomfortable with that single foot tap then plant and it's mostly because it's something he hasn't done in 3 years (and may not have really ever done in his life). He looks very, very comfortable with the 2-tap approach, but it is simply not very effective. If he can retain that approach and continue to use it, he will become more comfortable with it after each passing day and it will eventually become second nature to him.

 

As an aside to that point, it also makes sense to me why some players really struggle and can't take that next step. They are so ingrained into their current methods that when they stop working, they can't cut out bad habits and even when they know what they're doing, they still do it. This is another reason I believe Bautista to be a clean player because he has not only been able to continue the leg lift early in his swing, but he has become very, very comfortable with that approach and it has helped him an incredible amount. I honestly believe that Quentin could see similar results and it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see him garner MVP votes in both of the next two years, assuming he stays healthy and retains this approach at the plate. That timing mechanism isn't quite as good as Bautista's, but it's pretty close and it could certainly become as good as he gets used to it again and actually fine tunes it to the point Bautista has done with his.

[witesoxfan]

Not to hijack the thread but...

 

I wish Walk would get Beckham back to this swing:

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=5277447

 

Can you do a breakdown on this swing (2009) versus his current one? I mean, this swing was just SO SWEET. Short, quick, and seemingly he could cover anything that anyone threw at him. I legitimately thought we had a star within the first month of watching Gordo. Why can't Walker get him back to this place?

 

Edit: here is another AWESOME shot of that great swing GB had in 2009:

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=6428277

 

Now he looks totally different up there....total joke.

 

The biggest difference I can see between Beckham in 2009 and Beckham this year is that he appears to bring his leg up about 3 inches higher now than he did in 2009. Some guys will use that to generate power, but Beckham really doesn't need to do so because he creates tremendous bat swing as it is. He's also starting the load process about half a second sooner (but this varies from time to time, which is a bad, bad thing), while the ball is halfway through the windup as opposed to the second the ball leaves the pitcher's hand. I don't like that simply because his body is moving and he is actually starting his swing while the pitcher is going through his windup when that should be a time that he is following the ball out of the pitcher's hand. A swing should be a reactive measure used by the hitter against the pitcher, and getting the body moving like that early in the motion makes the hitter the aggressive one which is something the pitcher will exploit.

 

Not sure if this is the video you posted but here is Beckham's final homer of the 2009 season.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/video/play...tent_id=6843277

 

Note how he is a little extra closed at that plate - you can see his right heel peek out just behind his left - he starts the load process just as the ball is about to leave Bonine's hand, and he has a quick, short, compact swing which allows him to turn on a 2-seam fastball on the inner half of the plate.

 

Here is video of his sac fly against McCarthy.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/video/play...ent_id=14777581

 

This isn't a bad pitch by McCarthy, but it's not a great pitch either - he hits his general spot, but appears to get the ball up just a bit and catches a bit too much of the plate. Still, any fastball at this point in time to Beckham is going to be a good pitch simply because that load process takes too long which is obviously a huge problem. Because this ball catches so much of the plate, it really could be hit with authority somewhere, and I think a good, strong hitter can get around on this ball. But because Beckham takes so long to load, he can barely get around on this ball and puts a bit of a defensive swing on the ball. He gets good enough wood on it to get it deep enough score a run, but this ball could have easily been a double in 2009 with his quicker approach.

 

One more example, a 2 run homer against Ted Lilly

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/video/play...ent_id=14997991

 

Lilly throws him a lollipop curveball here. Beckham starts his load later than against McCarthy, but sooner than against Bonine. At the same time, because this pitch is soooo slow, Beckham's foot comes way up and the entire load takes quite a bit longer...that's OK because if he can recognize the pitch out of the hand, he's going to be able to make that adjustment during the swing process. The biggest thing is finding some consistency as to when he starts the swing process. I think he needs to get it down to the point where he is starting it the second the ball is leaving the pitcher's hand, as he simply does become a relatively reactive hitter at that point which is where I think he's the best. When he starts it early, he is looking for certain pitches and cheating, and pitchers will take advantage of that all day long.

[Bighurt52235]

Damn sir. You are a writer! Props on the solid posts.

[BFirebird]

Great read. I can totally see the Beckham standing taller thing. I didn't notice the Q tapping though. Nicely done and great examples to other players.

[Steve9347]

I agree entirely on Beckham. When he first came up he looked like a tough out... his straight up stance makes him look scared and bad.

[witesoxfan]

Carlos Quentin had a sizable lead in the majors in extra base hits heading into tonight's game with 35. The next closest in either league is Adrian Gonzalez at 32.

 

No one with 30 extra base hits had one in the AL tonight, which means that Quentin's 37 extra base hits are now 5 more than anybody else in the AL.

 

His Iso after tonight's game is .325. That is second in the majors to Bautista's .372.

 

Given 600 plate appearances, Quentin is on pace to hit 47 doubles, 40 homers, and himself 31 times. Given 650, those numbers increase to 51 doubles, 43 homers, and 33 HBP.

 

Carlos good at baseball.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Carlos Quentin had a sizable lead in the majors in extra base hits heading into tonight's game with 35. The next closest in either league is Adrian Gonzalez at 32.

 

No one with 30 extra base hits had one in the AL tonight, which means that Quentin's 37 extra base hits are now 5 more than anybody else in the AL.

 

His Iso after tonight's game is .325. That is second in the majors to Bautista's .372.

 

Given 600 plate appearances, Quentin is on pace to hit 47 doubles, 40 homers, and himself 31 times. Given 650, those numbers increase to 51 doubles, 43 homers, and 33 HBP.

 

Carlos good at baseball.

 

How many more arb years does he have remaining? I love what Carlos has done this year. But I'm still hesitant to commit to him long-term. I'd like to see a similar year in 2012 before I'd be comfortable with that.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Jordan4life

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

How many more arb years does he have remaining? I love what Carlos has done this year. But I'm still hesitant to commit to him long-term. I'd like to see a similar year in 2012 before I'd be comfortable with that.

 

I think Carlos and Danks are in the same boat contractually. So 2012 is the last year we own both of them.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I think Carlos and Danks are in the same boat contractually. So 2012 is the last year we own both of them.

 

Yes, you are right. That's perfect. Assuming we don't go rebuild. In which case I wouldn't have a problem trading him for the right package (his value is pretty high again). It's a shame we're wasting such terrific seasons from PK/CQ and Lillibridge coming out of nowhere. I said coming into the year that the three guys on this team I had absolutely no worries about were Danks, Thornton and Dunn. And the guys I worried about were PK, CQ and I just assumed Humber and Lilly would just take up space. Like a reverse jinx or something.

[maggsmaggs]

Carlos is literally the best and worst player for an organization to have. The best, well because his talent is immense and when he is healthy, he is one of the top 10 hitters in the game. But the worst because he is so injury prone. It's really hard to commit four years, $50 million for a guy who has played in 130 games, 99 games and 131 games in the last three years.

 

You have to feel like if we commit big money to him, he will be constantly injured. But if we let him walk, that's what he suddenly remains healthy. Gonna be quite the conundrum, especially when we will have some big, dead money on the roster.