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I don't care how thin the market is, no one is going to give you something useful and pay Kimbrel $16 million after the way he finished the season. If there was a little regression from where he was with the Cubs, fine. But this was too much. Just admit your mistake, pay him the $1 million and move on. Spend the $15 million on something else. At the end, he wasn't even striking people out.

Maybe no one would give up what we did in Madrigal but you would get something, if you don't pick up the option you get nothing and the Madrigal trade is even worse.

It’s apparent that he changes the way he calls the game once runners are on base because of his lack of confidence with pitches in the dirt. It was a night and day difference between him and Maldonado in this series. Maldonado didn’t change the game plan with runners on because he trusted his ability to block balls in the dirt. Can’t say the same for Grandal. No advanced metric will capture this either but it’s a big problem and has been ever since he arrived.

Look at how many holes we have and people actually think bringing in a new catcher is somehow realistic. I fully agree the defense could be better, but the hatred for Grandal by a handful of posters here is beyond crazy to me. The gamethreads are almost unbearable with the amount of nitpicking / blame sent his way.

I'm guessing the reason why called a lot of fastballs this series is because very few of our pitchers could get a breaking ball over for a strike.

Is there a catcher alive that would actually throw runners out the way the White Sox pitchers let them get jumps?

LaRussa is gonna return which means JR is gonna spend.

Remember when Ozzie quit on the team when the season wasn’t even over and they had to have Don Cooper interim manage? Yeah, he should never manage the Sox again.

TL;DR RH: Something something obviously disappointed something something something nobody is more disappointed than Jerry, Kenny, and myself something something our window is just starting to open blah blah blah take the next step

I hated the idea of bringing Ozzie back, but if the choice is Tony or Ozzie, I am #TeamOzzie all day.

You can either complain about the salary, or you can complain about the return.

Please TLR, resign this week! Go enjoy your retirement. Let someone else younger and more qualified handle this young talent that needs stronger fundamentals and discipline. If JR could actually be honest with himself, which we know he is too arrogant and senile to do, he would realize making you the manager was a colossal mistake. We went backwards from 2020 instead of forward.

The irony of this coming from you is you hated the player who was different.

The grade is an F. They did not get out of the first round. Tepera doesn't matter. Hernandez was bad enough his option will be declined. And Kimbrel was so bad his option will be declined. I never thought the Sox had any intention of keeping Kimbrel from the start, but they won't be able to flip him with a $16 million price tag. Hindsight isn't fair, but it's the only way to give an accurate grade. It turns out, the Sox didn't improve their team at the deadline. They only weakened their assets and spent some cash which will bite us all.

Incredibly disappointing, to be sure. Completely foreseeable, absolutely. So much for all the "experts" talking about the irrelevance of a poor record against a team you get to face first in the playoffs. It is and was all true - the Sox were very lucky to be in the AL Central, it made them look much better than they were. I resent the fact that, given that management must have known this, they dismissed the importance of winning, of developing a killer instinct to crush opponents, for 6, 8, maybe 10 weeks at the end of the season. And what you saw was a team with talented pitchers who didn't pitch, talented hitters who didn't hit - in short, not ready for prime time. The net result is the same as if Ricky Renteria were still there - I, for one, hope that Tony does the right thing and steps down - he had his shot, it didn't happen, and Reinsdorf won't fire him again. Rodon - hey, thanks for the memories, go get paid - elsewhere, I'm down with that. Rodon pitched in both games that blew the Sox out of the playoffs 2 years in a row - let Boros stick that into a Powerpoint and spin it for all it's worth. Net/net - the team rode over an awful division (Tom Brady knows how that feels in his NE years), bragged they were better than they could show to be, got pummeled in their first playoff series, and had none of its key stars show up when it mattered. They were outclassed - by a mile - by the Astros in terms of talent, skill at baseball, and overall determination to win. Maybe to prove that they can win without cheating? Who knows? They weren't cheating this time - forget about that - the White Sox missed their moment. They need more pitching, more reliable pitching, more experience, fewer headcases; they need the hitters they have to hit, remember how to hit, something. And they need to learn to pick up the ball and throw it straight - I've never seen a sloppier team for a whole season. At the end of the day, the White Sox are this year's Twins - the AL Central excuse for a playoff team that has no business being in the playoffs and gets pounded and thrown out in the first round. Hurray! I guess you can call it a development year. Screw the bat flips - hit the ball, get on base, hit home runs, throw strikes and miss bats. Back to basics. I can't say - and won't - the Cub's refrain for decades. Next year is promised to no one. Hopefully Soxfest doesn't turn into a Cub event where they all congratulate themselves on getting close but still getting their participation trophy. I live outside Chicago, so there's no more Cubs angst here - but it's worse in a way. My Sox gear is going away for the winter, because I don't feel like getting the out-of-town commentary on how the loud South-siders went out with a whimper - or a roar from the other team as Liam gave up that 3 run homer. Make the team better, Rick - and Kenny - and especially, Jerry. And lose LaRussa along the way, please.

The White Sox had 18 passed balls this season(tied for 2nd worst). They had 84 wild pitches this season(tied for 4th worst). They were the worst team when it comes to rctch, at -20. Next closest team was -13... Tied for 2nd in errors committed by catchers... Obviously wild pitches is on the pitchers, too, but pitch blocking is a huge part of that. They were more or less the worst defensive catching team by pretty much every measurable metric... Grandal was barely an average pitch framer this season, based on statcast numbers. Grandal's offense(when it's there) doesn't even remotely cover his deficiencies everywhere else. Collins and Zavala both absolutely suck... This doesn't even take into consideration the effect the terrible defense and pitch blocking has on pitch selection. Never mind looking at bases stolen, which both pitchers and catchers are abysmal at preventing. Grandal is only getting older, and this is going to continue to get worse as the injuries pile up.... I think catcher is a huge need for this team. If you don't, I'm not sure what to tell you.

The way international signing happen these days just doesn't work for me. How about every ball club gets an exclusive on certain foreign countries such as... White Sox....Cuba Astros...Iceland Yankees...Greenland Dodgers....Norway Make it happen Manfred.

Seriously everybody loves to shit on Grandal but every Sox starter is awful at holding guys on but Keuchel. Rodon is about as bad as you can be as a lefty. Lynn doesn't even seem to care. Cease won't shorten up won't vary his looks. Kopech looks like he just loses focus. Kimbrel's big slow leg kick should be ran on all day. It's very bad.

The love for Sheets in the org is real. Big love.

Hahn was like an ISIS hostage in that video. That's everything you need to know.

Bottom line is Sox just played terrible in 3/4 games. SP was flat awful. Defense was poor all around. Bad managerial decision after bad managerial decision. Got no help from the umps. Just an all around disaster. We were told for months how TLR was getting this team ready for this series, and then we just see a complete microcosm of all of this team's shortcomings continually rear its ugly head in a 5 game series. The better team won. It hurts. Just wish the Sox would have played better. The certainly were a better team than they showed.

No argument from me. I said it was a terrible trade the day it happened and that Heuer had a decent chance to be just as good as Kimbrel rest of way. Was slightly tongue in cheek, but it went even worse than anyone could imagine. Terrible trade. The brightside is - as much as I love Madrigal and wish we still had him - he isn't really the answer to what ails this team. He helps some weaknesses, but is at best an average defender, hits from the wrong side of plate, etc. It just sucks we both 1) sold low and 2) got nothing in return. I feel like we could have turned Madrigal into something that was much more beneficial to the window than pushing all the chips in on the bullpen. Oh well. The Sox can recover from this trade.

Lindor's contract alone would scare most GM's away. If Hahn left the Sox for the Mets, I'll buy this site and pay everyone per post.

Re-reading this thread was awesome. I fucking HATED the idea of acquiring Kimbrel. I fucking KNEW this org was going to get fleeced, and I KNEW that they're too stoopud to actually learn from any of their mistakes. This one trade simultaneously made the team WORSE for this year, fucked their financial flexibility for this offseason, and shortened the window a bit by squandering a fucking decade of control over 2 youngsters. I gotta ask: Can anyone think of another move that could have made the team worse, made the org have less financial flexibility, AND shortened the window, all at the same time? Thanks in advance.

If Hahn leaves I'll write JR another letter requesting to be interviewed for the GM job.

It turns out that Kimbrel was a big mistake. I wouldn't compound that mistake by getting cute with any sign and trade scams. Don't pick up the option and move on would be my read on the best course of action. His salary would go a long way in upgrading RF and 2nd base.

What they gave up to get him does not matter. This is called the “sunk cost” fallacy. What matters now is if he is worth his option. He is not.

Prediction: if they pick up his option he’s still on the team in June.

I agree 100 percent with you. The manager is responsible for the lack of drive and awful fundamentals. I think we have the talent. I think it was poorly coached and developed. A perfect example of the lack of fundamentals and discipline is how the Astros stole 5 bases in 4 games and the Astros were 27th in stolen bases this season. Hahn also needs to be able to spend more money to fix some of the holes. We can't keep being a middle of the MLB team in payroll and expect to win a WS title.

What is his trade value now? What about a Segura swap with the Phillies? Doesn't reduce payroll at all, but it does provide at a bigger need.

Good lord, please bring Ozzie back to manage next year. TLR is toast. Ozzie is what this team needs.

For me, the Sox are less a team and more a collection of individual players, many of whom have gaps in their games that defy their positional requirements and batting order. Missing the discipline to control the strike zone and wait for pitches they can do damage against, or a willingness to take walks if pitchers try to work around them. Lacking the notion of situational hitting such as not swinging at the first pitch when the pitcher is struggling with control. Personally, I don't believe we can reach the promised land with both Jiminez and Abreu in the middle of the lineup...they are simply to easy to strike out or induce into weak contact. For me, Abreu stays and Jimenez goes (I have been advocating trading Jiminez for two years as his trade value has steadily declined). I believe '22 and beyond is less about acquiring specific players and more about sorting from among the current roster, then packaging the redundant (i.e. Eloy) to acquire positional talent who bring more than one-dimension to the roster. Guys like Vaughn, Sheets, Collins, Jiminez, Abreu and to a lesser extent, Mercedes all have value but have similar profiles and short comings to their games. We can't play 'em all.

I get we needed bullpen help, Tepera was a tremendous addition, but if they were going to trade Madrigal, Pilkington, and Heuer I wish it was for a player that had more impact than a closer/setup man. Kimbrel got 1 out. What kind of RF, 2B, or SP could we have gotten for a package of the 3?

The point remains. Jimmy claiming that is some glaring issue when the Sox outperformed the majority of teams on that list offensively just shows someone misrepresenting the importance of a singular statistic. The White Sox problem was that they were a poor defensive team (in part due to very poor positioning all year) and their SP - which was a strength in the regular season - let them down in the playoffs. The offense, all season, ranked near the top of baseball. Could they improve in some spots? Sure. Are they susceptible to right handers with sliders due to the make up of their lineup? Yup. Is there ground ball rate preventing them from being a good offense and the reason they're not in the playoffs? Absolutely not.

Similar has been said directly from the mouth of a Brewers scout that I know. I remember outside of his 2 strike prowess, nothing but complaints about Madrigal about his defense, his range, his base running, his lack of power, etc. up and down this board. The trade didn't work out, it would be nice to move on. Kimbrel is one reason the Sox didn't win this series but it isn't the main reason. Nick Madrigal is on the Cubs now. Some on here post about him like He is Fernando Tatis. Move on.

Nick Madrigal played 54 of 162 games this year. Last year he played 29 of 60 games. That is 83 of 222. In 139 of 222 games in the last two seasons, he made no contact, had no power, gave no speed or defense to the team because he was not available to them. If the goal is to get on base, you have to be able to play to get on base.

Again, if Nick Madrigal could stay healthy, he'd still be here.

The reason they traded for him was because he wasn't a rental.

Off-season needs (no particular order): Right Fielder (one that can hit left-handed preferred.) Second Baseman (preferably a lefty but righty could be ok with a lefty in RF) Reliever to replace Kimbrel (whether you decline option or pick it up and trade him somehow) Reliever to replace Kopech (Kopech slides into starting role) Veteran backup C. The time Grandal was out was brutal

I bet Rick Hahn is counting the days until SoxFest.......is over.

There is plenty to criticize about this season and plenty of work to do. But taking the 30,000-foot view: I thought 2021 would be the first year of the contention window. I still feel that way and think we’re on track. We won the division going away — despite horrific injuries that could easily have derailed us — and made the playoffs in back-to-back years for the first time *ever.* The park is packed and buzzing again. The team is in the national conversation. Our core is young and ascending. If you can’t see that things are objectively going well on the south side right now you’ve lost the plot and need to log off for awhile. Thankful for a fun season and looking forward to taking the next step in 2022. SIGN SEMIEN

Looking back at this season, part of me thinks that having more of a challenge to win the division would have benefitted the Sox. It was too easy to get into cruise mode in the second half and they didn't really have any 'pressure games' all season until this series against the Astros. With a lot of young players , and some of the older ones, it was easy for bad habits, such as sloppy defense to be acceptable and poor plate discipline because a loss here or there didn't really matter as the division was won from so far out. I'm not saying I want him back, but one thing Ricky R. seemed to be drilling into the players was to maintain standards at all times, I just didn't get that impression this season from TLR, other than his needless criticism of Yermin for hitting a home run.

best comments i have ever read on this site, thank you for telling the truth, but I am afraid the people making the needed baseball decisions are not the right people.

I love how caufield pivots off one incorrect point and just pretends... well my point still stands with the other guy too. For the record, I think lux is overrated as a prospect and will not figure it out and become a good big leaguer.

IMO Ozzie is a great manager for when you have the pieces to win. He's not a great manager during a rebuild. Next season would be PERFECT for him.

This is gonna be last post for a bit jsut because after this whole playoff run, I need a break from baseball. But I will say I think part of our disappointment is that this has never happened before. This was the Sox first back to back postseason appearances in franchise history. And maybe outside of 06 or after the 08 season, we aren't really conditioned for this. The fact is, we have a really amazing core group of players who are young and who are only going to get better. And we play in a division that quite frankly won't have a team ready to really do serious damage against us for another few years. The team absolutely needs some additions but I think we can win the World Series next year. I would really like to see us go after Semien at 2nd base. I'm very willing to let Vaughn compete for a job in RF and have Sheets be the DH. But Semien at 2nd base would be a game changer. And resign Tepeara. Kimbrel, I'm up in the air on largely because I think he showed his real self in the last week of the season and in Game 4. It's pretty fucking obvious to anyone who was watching that Tony used him pretty badly in Game 2 and in this game (He should have had a clean inning). But $18 million is a lot to pay a set up man. That being said, I think this team will be very competitive next year.

Honestly Ron, shut the fuck up with trying to backseat mod.

Remember when Hahn signed Eaton when Brantley was still available for the taking? That move stings. I thought it was too obvious at the time.

One year of a gamble on Rodon with a QO may be worth it, rather than a 3- or 4-year gamble he may be looking for with a longer contract. I'm for a QO but won't be upset if someone else signs him to a multi-year deal.

First moves: Pick up Kimbrel's option; promptly trade him Decline Cesar's option QO to Rodon Sign Marcus Semien for 2B