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The Sox have never even given lip service to vertical integration and any sort of top to bottom philosophy that they scout and then develop. The Mariners, who are the Sox' west coast doppelgänger in many ways, at least preach a "control the zone" mentality, even if they haven't been able to implement it well. From 1000ft away, it seems like the Rays really prize athletes that can play multiple positions and then they teach them to hit enough. The Sox under KW were similar, although obviously not as successful at the teaching them to hit part. The Dodgers? Well they have massive resources and it seems their MLB scouting is the best in the game by a large margin. If they acquire a vet or let one go, they almost always make the right decision. Anyways, the Sox need to clean house but for the millionth time written on this board, it won't happen until JR either dies or sells the team.

Sure, but the Sox need to: 1. Identify coachable players (with talent and upside) 2. Develop and align on a vision of where the player ought to end up, what type of pitcher the player the organization sees in the future 3. Coach consistently across all levels of the minors (and big leagues) to give a continuity of instruction Yeah, coaching starts in high school (or before), but that's not really something the Sox can control other than to assess its impact on the player at the time of acquisition.

Probably decent sized, but primary method of killing is to fly super-fast and collide with the other bird in mid air, killing it. Then he eats it. All of it -- feathers, feet, head, bones, all of it.

There are several webcams and other resources you can use to follow the Chicago area's more than 20 nesting pairs, which are believed to have come from a single pair introduced as part of an effort to bring the species back from near-extinction in the '80s. https://www.fieldmuseum.org/science/special-projects/illinois-peregrines Every time I think that life in Chicago feels drab or inconsequential, I try to remember that the world's fastest animal was brought back from the brink and now speeds over our heads while we go about our daily business, stalking their prey on thousands of years of accumulated instinct and making their homes in modern-day cliffs built by mankind.

If you bring someone in like Katz, you bring in the person (or people) who best fit the mold of the pitchers they'll be inheriting. This is likely why you often see multiple hitting / pitching coaches at the big league level. As for the vertical integration being a magic bullet... of course, the coaches, players, and scouts all have to be good enough. If you have s%*# scouts bringing in supremely talented players that don't fit any sort of development mold, that's going to overwhelm the coaching staff and confuse the players. If you have the greatest coaching staff that's perfectly aligned with the scouts, but the players suck... you can't make chicken soup out of chicken s%*#. If you have scouts bringing in the "right" players who are supremely talented into a pipeline of shitty coaches, there's no way to maximize the return on your player capital investment. Anyways, that's my arm chair quarterbacking. Clearly there's a reason I'm posting on Soxtalk and not working in professional sports, but my views are derived from what I've gathered about how winning organizations operate... and hell - even how effective corporations operate.

June 5, 1935 – White Sox rookie pitcher John Whitehead saw his eight-game winning streak to start his MLB career snapped, losing to the St. Louis Browns, 2-0. Whitehead would finish 13-13 in his rookie campaign, with 18 complete games. “Silent John” pitched in 127 games over four-plus seasons on the South Side winning 47 times before he was traded to the Browns. His 8-0 start to his big-league career was one of the best ‘beginnings’ in franchise history ranking right up there with Gary Peters going 19-8 in 1963 and James Baldwin starting out 9-1 in 1996. June 5, 1960 - Sox pitchers Russ Kemmerer and Frank Baumann both fired complete game shutouts in beating the Kansas City Athletics in a double header. The Sox won both games by the same score of 2-0. The A’s combined for only 10 hits on the Sunday afternoon. Baumann would wind up leading the league in ERA that season at 2.67 finishing 13-6. Kemmerer would fashion an ERA for the year at 2.98. June 5, 1967 - Eddie Stanky did it again. The Sox manager let loose a verbal assault on Red Sox All-Star Carl Yazstrzemski. Before a three-game set in Comiskey Park, Stanky was quoted as saying, “He may be an All-Star from the neck down but in my book he’s a moody ballplayer...and I don’t like moody ballplayers.” Red Sox fans were incensed and let Stanky and the Sox have an earful, as well as throwing tomatoes at him whenever he went to the mound when the Sox went to Boston the following week.

Thanks for getting it. The home/road stats are a statistical anomaly based on the scant evidence of less than 1/3 of a season. Lets not treat them as if they were etched in stone or established over a career's length. Play him. He wins you ball games.

51 years ago today one of the most famous home runs in Sox history took place. I was sitting in the lower right field deck and personally saw it, it was quite a moment. I've also attached some links that I provided material for honoring Dick's career on the South Side. The first is from the Chicago Baseball Museum's 40th anniversary celebration for Dick and that team. I co-hosted with Richard Roeper, the three day event. Dick was there along with Hank Allen, Bill Melton, Carlos May, Tom Bradley, Bart Johnson, "Goose" Gossage, Ed Spiezio and Roland Hemond. The second and third links are features Matt Flesch put together, Matt was the driving force behind the "Last Comiskey" documentary. You'll see actual home movie footage of the Chili Dog home run that I was able to provide to him in it. I hope you enjoy the memories: June 4, 1972 - It is forever known as the “Chili Dog Game” one of the most electrifying games ever played in team history. In the second game of a double header with the Yankees, the Sox having already won the first game 6-1, Sox manager Chuck Tanner wanted Dick Allen to be ready to pinch hit in the last of the ninth inning if needed. Allen at the time was wolfing down a chili dog since he had played in the first game, was sitting out the nightcap and was hungry. He quickly had to put on a uniform getting the last of the chili dog all over the top of it which caused the clubhouse boys to give him a new, clean jersey. With two men on and the Sox losing 4-2, Allen was called to hit. On the third pitch from future Sox relief pitcher Al “Sparky” Lyle, Allen deposited the ball into the left field lower deck for a 5-4 win and a sweep of the twin bill. A bat-day crowd of almost 52-thousand exploded. One of the greatest one-liners in Sox history took place as Lyle was walking in from the bullpen. Mike Andrews was on first base. He and Lyle were roommates when both were with the Red Sox. As Lyle approached the mound Andrews called out, “Sparky”, you’re in deep s%*# now!” As a side note, future sportscaster Keith Olbermann, a Yankee fan, wrote about listening to this game in his book that he co-authored with Dan Patrick “The Big Show”. Olbermann wrote that when Allen hit the home run, he threw his radio out of the second-floor window of his parent’s house.

Does the falcon have large talons?

Very true. As the most pro-bird at GRF fan there is, I can't help but wonder if falcons would be so necessary had they not gotten rid of the alpha goose?

He currently has more of a pulse than the AL Central.

My comment was about that it wasn't the best pitch and he still could hit it so far because of his amazing strength. But ok. if you're going to play that game then consider this. Yes, it's great that Jake got it all. However you are forgetting Lange was missing badly and both Moncada and TA took advantage of his wildness and both walked consecutively before Jake's at bat. Jake already took ball one on Lange's first pitch which was well outside. If Jake took that second pitch, it would have been ball two with the bases loaded. Jake would now be in the best hitter's pitch count and Lange now has to come with a strike with that third pitch. Jake could have also missed that pitch and now be at 1-1 without the advantage. Hell, the way Lange was missing, Jake might have been able to walk in the winning run. I am a huge Burger fan like many here, and it's great Jake caught it with a good upper cut swing. However his swings have also missed many outside pitches this year, so don't make it sound like it was a no-brainer and done deal once he made the swing.

Meh, when I was playing I had plenty of coaches I had to tune out due to bad advice/know it all attitude. I'd imagine that'd be hard for someone drafted out of college to a major league organization. You want to come in and do what you're told. There are so many levels in an mlb organization it's probably a whirlwind of info for these young players coming from guys that failed themselves. Blame to go around? Sure. But good/bad coaching matters too. Sometimes too much.

I just looked at the standings. The Sox just finished off a three game sweep, but are still nine games under .500 yet only 5 1/2 games out of first. I’ll take “Sentences that have never before been uttered” for 400 please, Alex.

I don't know about attitude or love of the game but we need more guys like Jake that hit the piss out of the ball.

Another thing: It definitely has to help team morale to have our stellar closer back. Nobody can deny he's an elite baseball pitcher, an all star. Liam's presence definitely can help this team. At 5.5 games out of first, this team actually could contend in this division if it actually got hot and everybody started to have their proverbial career year from this point on. I'm not saying the team is any good but 5.5 games out means the team actually 'could' contend. Hope the guys actually want to build on this sweep and keep competing. This horsebleep team still could finish last but it also could contend. Stay healthy liam; get your head out Timmy; figure something out, Elvis, give us 5 innings every night, 2 or 3 of u starters. Stay healthy eloy and robert and start elevating eloy. Peace out.

Burger is a good dh 1b guy.. has looked real good since spring training.

Burger is what they call country strong. The guy is built like a truck. He really got himself in great shape. You have to get him in the lineup as much as possible. He gives 100% all the time. The Sox need more players with his attitude and love of the game. The sweep was great to see but I'm not getting sucked in to being optimistic about this team. The Tigers are an awful team. The next 22 games is their toughest stretch of the season. I predict no better than 7-15.

It's also a bunch of stiffs trying to pin their failure on someone else. Fulmer has been let go by how many teams? Will no one let him long toss? I saw Clevenger long tossing before the game Friday.

The Yankees front office is keeping the status of Aaron Judge’s big toe out of the media so far. No IL stint has been announced yet, but they could always post-date it. Many rumors swirling he may have broke his toe making the diving catch. Nestor Cortes is also a recent addition to the IL for a shoulder injury. Former Sox Carlos Rodon and Ian Hamilton are also out for the series.

I don’t understand a word you just said

I think Peller would be better off not making so many trades and using more of his young players. Hahn, of course, absolutely buried the Sox with his lazy and reckless young-for-old trades, especially in his first try. I can't think of a single Hahn young-for-old trade that ended up a big net plus (there may be one, but I can't think of it). The Sox aren't set up poorly for the future...IF the FO was capable. There's a lot of things they could do, including finessing this upcoming July trade period. But, they can't and won'.

Obviously it can always fail. The point is the good organizations with consistent top farm systems have a stronger scouting department which starts the entire process. They seem to identify the better prospects to suggest to the GM to ultimately draft. Of course this starts at the top and trickles down. Somehow in the Dodgers and Rays clubs for example, once they are drafted, they seem to be able to convey to the minor league director and all their coaches at each minor league level, the type of hitting and pitching fundamentals and situational pitching and hitting philosophies to teach solid baseball skills. They seem to be better at making these prospects productive and future solid big league players...for either their own team or as valuable trade bait. The fact the Sox AAA Knights at 5.91 and AA Barons at 5.77 are both dead last in team ERA in their respective minor league divisions, tells you the Sox do not have a good scouting and developing pitching prospects blueprint I realize I always use the Rays and Dodgers as prime examples of good organizations, but take a look at the last 9 years between these two clubs regarding MLB farm system rankings: Dodgers Rays 2023 #2 #6 2022 #2 #3 2021 #14 #1 2020 #9 #1 2019 #3 #2 2018 #10 #4 2017 #6 #10 2016 #1 #14 2015 #3 #11 When you have numbers like this above, it is not a fluke why both teams are usually in the playoffs most years. Maybe the day Reinsdorf is gone and a new owner comes in, we can attempt to get this type of sold organizational structure.

He passed away recently. He had a long, successful career, but what I remember vividly about him was that in 1959, he started Game 1 of the World Series between Dodgers and Sox. We won, something like 11 to 0. He was removed early., obviously. Turns out the Sox gave the LA wives tickets in the right field upper deck in old Comiskey, and when Roger struggled, the fans up there really let her have it. She had to leave, crying as she went. I never understood how fans can be that cruel. RIP Roger.

He was very good in 2022. This year he's only had a handful of starts.

This part of your post is where I want to take things a step further. In the scenario where you're selling the farm for a "win now" season, teams like the Dodgers and Rays (and Guardians and others) appear to have some sort of steady pipeline they've developed that can consistently produce assets to the big league club - whether in the form of players who are ready to contribute to the club directly, or whether they are valuable as tradeable assets for big league contributors. The Sox stocked their farm system by grabbing the best minor league talent that big league talent can buy, but they've done NOTHING to develop a development pipeline. That's why Project Birmingham piqued my interest (what a month that was...), and that's where I will continue to be most critical of this organization's baseball operations.

Basically exactly what @The Kids Can Play said below: The quote(s) by Fulmer indicate that at each stop up the minor league ladder, there was a different coach with a different philosophy or "idea" who would try to make his mark on Fulmer. By the time Fulmer got to the big leagues, the physical traits and talent that made him successful at Vanderbilt had been coached out. To me, that's two different things. There's the "what to teach" part of it (mechanics, skills, approach to the game, etc.), and then there's the "how to teach it" part of it. What I've been ranting about is the "what to teach," and that's largely what I interpret Fulmer's complaints to be about. The "how to teach it" is what you're talking about - how to get the players to buy in, how to motivate players, how to make the light bulb turn on. Ultimately, that part of the coaching jobs is too nuanced and hands-on to ever be obsolete... if you can teach people to give a s%*# and be humble enough to realize their coaches might know a thing or two... and if you CAN actually teach the skills, then you're bound to be a damn good minor league coach.

Looks like tomorrow’s starter is heating up though.

Seeing how many players make up both the DSL & ACL rosters at the moment really reiterates how badly they could use second teams in these complex leagues.

For decades we were told about the "Oriole Way" and the "Cardinal Way." It was a consistent baseball philosophy taught at all levels up to and including the big league team. If I remember right they had manuals like football playbooks that explained how things were to be done in situations.

That's great old school coaching and probably will be in fashion again soon. Modern coaching is based on the idea you have to find an approach that works for each unique player to reach their potential. Different people are motivated in different ways, learn in different ways, and improve in different ways. I believe that's where the coaching staff is failing. They force players into molds they aren't fitting. Regardless obviously it's not working. The ultimate goal is winning at the MLB level. I don't care where the system ranks if the MLB team is winning. Using an extreme example to illustrate this point. If you emptied all the talent from the system in a trade for three All Star level players, winning a WS, the system would bottom out, but have served it's primary function. We're at the worst situation, failing at the MLB level and have a shitty farm system.

Well, except for winning three playoff series and Attendance 2018 18th/26,837 2019 14th/29,585 2020 0 2021 3rd/27,061 2022 5th/36,931 2023 5th/39,947 White Sox haven't been in the Top Ten since 2006, a full 17 years now. Once again, the 27th or 28th biggest media market in the majors. That, alone, is a major success for one of the least winning-est franchises in all of MLB since their inception. They also have a Top 5 ballpark, the weather/lifestyle to attract FA's and $20 million invested in the Gallagher Square area that will bounce back to Seidler. https://ballparkdigest.com/2023/05/30/padres-prepping-gallagher-square-renovations-for-2024/

No one is terrible when facing the Sox lineup.

Jake burger gets the praise he deserves BUT when guys have productive AB's in front of him it leads to it When this team is patient they are a good hitting team

Falcon is fastest animal in the world.

Peregrine falcons tend to come around in Spring and seem to like tall buildings in absence of actual cliffs. Maybe they're nesting lower this year for some reason. I wonder if they're more prevalent this year in general, the Field Museum monitors them and their reintroduction program has been very successful. I'm a big fan of the guys that live atop University Hall at UIC. Part of me thinks it would be really cool if they're nesting at the ballpark, but I also worry about their safety if Zac Gallen ever pitches here.

Part of being a good hitter is pitch recognition. Our guys flail because they don't pick up the pitch in time. Hanging sliders get popped up because they guess fastball and react late. Fastballs get hit into the dirt because they don't pick up the speed in time and swing late.

I don't agree it was a good idea at the time. As Caulfield pointed out: Kimbrel had misleading first half numbers compared to the prior 2-3 seasons with the Cubs. 2019 - Cubs - 6.53 ERA 2020 - Cubs - 5.28 ERA All I know is, of all my friends and family who are Cubs fans...they were ecstatic to get rid of Kimbrel. Yes Madrigal hasn't done well since leaving the Sox and obviously being sent down to Cubs AAA. However at the time the Cubs traded for Nick, he had two good years with us at BA .317, OBP 358. If were were going to trade Madrigal and Heuer, then we should have gotten more, or given the Cubs less in that trade. Keep in mind, on several other teams in MLB, Madrigal would still be on a roster. Sadly for Nick, he plays on the Cubs with Nico Hoerner and Dansby Swanson.

The dumb ass traded for Kimbrel as his best idea. The dumb ass picked up Kimbrel's option, passed on Rodon's QO. The dumb ass received one weak ass Kimbrel offer for an even more overpriced reserve OFer. The dumb ass can absolutely pick up Lynn's option if he somehow strings together a few decent starts against Central s%*# to close the season. Never underestimate the damage Hahn can and will do to this White Sox organization.

San Diego loves the trade.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 23, 2009 -> 11:17 AM) While I criticize KW from time to time (mostly because there are so many people who think he can do no wrong) picking out 2 trades in 9 years is a bit ridiculous. Everyone screws up. I still think in the long run the Swisher trade isn't as bad as you think. He's not a CF and didn't have a place to play on the White Sox. They got out of his contract. We'll see how he does the next several years. Rios probably isn't a White Sox if Swisher is around, and he's a better player, and they did use the money they saved this year to sign Viciedo. The Foulke trade was bad at the time, the Sox may have won the WS in 2003 or 2004 if they kept him, but Cotts did help them win in 2005 even if Koch was done when they acquired him. May vs. did, I'll take the did anytime. So many bad trades wind up decently. When Hawk was GM, he was criticized for trading Bobby Bonilla for Jose DeLeon. DeLeon was a decent pitcher who eventually turned into Lance Johnson. A guy that helped the Sox win a lot of games. Hawk supposedly ruined the White Sox, a team not good enough to win previously when they had Britt Burns (who never pitched again) and Tom Seaver (who didn't wan't to play in the midwest anymore) and Bob James (who fell apart) leading their pitching staff in 1985. He also acquired Ivan Calderon for almost nothing, and Calderon help the Sox have a great season in 1990, before he was turned into Tim Raines. He was also criticized for turning over the scouting dept., the department that drafted Kurt Brown over Barry Bonds. I'm using Hawk as an example of grading the Swisher trade. Its waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy to early to grade it. Granted Betemit and Marquez aren't long for getting paid to play baseball, but what if Viciedo becomes a star? What if Nunez becomes dominant? Perhaps those are longshots, but what if Rios outplays Swisher for years? That's almost a guarantee. Good post, Dick. We can probably have a separate thread on Kenny's deals. He does make it interesting, but the Foulke trade was bad, Neil Cotts' 2005 contribution notwithstanding. He should have known better than to acquire Koch, then give him $12 MM. Then the Swisher trade -- I wish Kenny would not even talk to Beane. I never understood giving up on Sweeney, especially since he can play CF. Gio, too. All of the Carl Everett and Alomar deals were so-so. Kenny has a habit of getting over the hill players like them; also, Darrin Erstad, who was an embarrassment. He throws worse than Pods. Same with Betemit. I thought he gave up way too much for Thome, given that we did the Phillies a huge favor by taking Thome, since all they had was Ryan Howard ready to go. There were others, some of which I forgot. Although it doesn't sound like it, I like Kenny.

QUOTE (jenks45monster @ Aug 24, 2009 -> 07:15 PM) I've been following this guy since I couldn't find any info on him earlier in the season. Name: Leighton Pangilinan Born: March 6, 1991 Height: 6'3 Weight: 230 Position: 1B Bats: Left Throws: Right School: Escalon High School (California) Drafted: 2009, 40th Round - 1213 overall Stats at Bristol: AVG G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS SH SF GIDP OBP SLG OPS .303 37 119 8 36 7 0 3 15 4 24 0 1 1 2 6 .325 .437 .762 Great name, too. Pangilinan and Shoemaker on same team.

QUOTE (Markbilliards @ Aug 24, 2009 -> 09:46 AM) Vicideo is a good candidate for 1B. He might be too short to be an average first baseman. Speaking of that, Konerko is underrated defensively. Never would have said that 5-6 yrs ago.

How does DSL compare to other minor league levels?

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Aug 18, 2009 -> 10:24 AM) I completely agree. I think his agent f***ed him over big-time. But he also screwed himself over. I never saw a final list of signees. Is there a link available?

QUOTE (BlackBetsy @ Aug 2, 2009 -> 09:04 AM) I just fear this is our Larry Anderson for Jeff Bagwell trade. Kenny Williams hasn't had a big trade bite him in the ass yet (Kip Wells and Fogg for Todd Ritchie was bad, but neither were perennial All Star players). The entire Swisher escapade should make Kenny blush. Also, the Keith Foulke trade to Oakland for whatshisname, made worse when Kenny gave him $6MM. Foulke still had 2-3 good years left.

What do you guys know about this prospect? Stats sure look good.

I have never seen Quentin in RF. He's barely marginal in left. Can't see him on RF next year.

QUOTE (Fedor @ Aug 7, 2009 -> 03:04 PM) Brandon MaCarthy, Neal Cotts and Gio Gonzalez struck out a lot of A-ball hitters, too. Big deal. Dex Carter needs to prove he's Corwin Malone before Padres annoint as anything "next" All three of those guys made it to the majors, and the jury is still out on Gio. I wish I were a fly on EW's wall when he made the Peavy trade. Wonder which of our guys put it over. Seems to me like Padres would have done it for Pareda and Richard alone once Peavy was injured. I think we gave up too much.