WestEddy

And it sure sounds like Kopech is the Sox' closer, now.

Madrigal - Or it means that if the Sox failed, the Tigers, Giants and Phillies failed worse with their higher first rounders. I think if Rodon was gone, the Sox would have taken Nola. ReyLo - a pitcher's a pitcher. Yes, a starter is more valuable, but they got what they could from him. Kopech - Chris Sale's psychological problems didn't hinder his abilities. Maybe a Brian Bannister level sports psychologist is the next hire. Adolfo also had TJS, and all. That guy is a true tragedy for the org. I remember Bailey & Bush well. Bailey tore up the dominican summer league, and Bush looked like a steal where they took him. Sounds like Bush was a bit of a maturity issue. I don't think Paddy's the issue, just resource allocation and priorities. Rooted for Adams. He just didn't really have major league stuff, right? Clarkin/Basabe - Yeah, a better organization can unlock guys. The Sox weren't (aren't?) a "better" org. Thompson/Dalquist and the 3 guys I mentioned, picked 4,5,6 in 2017. Now we have Bannister. 2005-20whenever was a vast wasteland. I agree. Getz most probably wasn't the best choice out there, but he's certainly better than Hahn. Low bar, I know.

Here's my challenge: No, not irrefutable. Just a name. It's all opinion. I'm even conceding players who were probably failed by our development system. To people who won't even admit that White Sox minor leaguers who came through our minor league system and had success in the majors were even "developed" by the White Sox. That's the part that makes it exhausting.

One national guy who writes about prospects and organizations (Keith Law) singled out the Sox system for taking a huge leap... maybe not forward, but came a long way to catching up to being able to develop hitters, and that happened on Getz's watch. And a lot of guys from the 21 and 22 drafts have shown much more promise than I ever remember a class of prospects having.

Sorry.

Do you have a copy of his resume? Looking on LinkedIn, he worked in front offices since 2014, and was asst. GM/head of player development before his promotion. That's probably enough for a first time GM. As I said to Nardi, I really wish they picked outside the organization. Getz being linked to the KW/Hahn regime is a distraction until the team actually turns the corner again. That said, he's GM, and all the screeching won't change that.

The AJ podcast was a shitshow. I don't claim Getz was remaking the industry from his job. It looks like he did a fair-good job. Keith Law always hated the Sox' system, and he held up Micker Adolfo as an example of the White Sox finally solving their inability to develop hitters. That's a guy they took from a weight room marvel to an actual, thinking, baseball hitter. So, good on him for that, I guess. Personally, I wish the Sox had conducted a full search and interview process, and just gone outside the organization for a new GM. That would at least have bought him/her a bit of a honeymoon period to operate, and make the uncomfortable decisions. Getz didn't, and the fact he was part of the old regime was a distraction from day one. Mike Shirley's drafts look a lot better than any of Hostetler's, so maybe procurement was a big problem.

Obviously.

Yes, he was probably part of the decision making process. "Do you think Andrew Vaughn could play OF to get at-bats?" "Sure, he's athletic. He could be adequate, in time." "Good, plug him into RF tomorrow!"

I did. And that's somehow bad in naysayer world? You're welcome for the knowledge.

That's rich. And funny. Let me when you have to start treatment from all the jolting you get on the internet.

I agree with all of this.

Okay, I've taken out all the guys you concede were "wins". Here's the rest: (my comments in orange) no, they aren't "failures" Eloy Jimenez - Failure - Dumb injuries derailed career, sapped strength Luis Gonzalez - Failure - tried to sneak him through waivers, did well for a month w/Giants Nick Madrigal - Failure - rushed, traded, more bWAR than 3 guys drafted before him Reynaldo Lopez - Failure. EDIT: As a starter - relievers are people, too Michael Kopech - Failure - see Lopez, also, head-case Micker Adolfo - Failure - Keith Law considers this a big org win. Injuries derailed him. Went from not knowing baseball to actual bat-first prospect. The main failure was rostering on 40-man too early, ran out of options. Jimmy Lambert - Failure - no he isn't. Late rounder found bullpen success injured Jonathan Stiever - Failure Sean Burke - TBD, not looking good Norge Vera - TBD, but so far, failure rushed Carson Fulmer - Failure - predates Getz Oscar Colas - Pedro hates him - undeveloped, might just be a bonehead. jury's out Matthew Thompson - Failure Jared Kelly - TBD, but so far, failure yes, couldn't correct flaws Zack Collins - Failure Alec Hansen - Disastrous failure Blake Rutherford - Failure Yoelqui Cespedes - Failure you kidding me? Benyamin Bailey - Failure Bryce Bush - Failure the rest Zack Burdi - Failure - sure. Maybe belongs under 'didn't correct flaws' Spencer Adams - Failure - okay. AAAA pitcher, maybe? Ian Clarkin - Failure - 2 other orgs couldn't, either, but, sure. Andrew Dalquist - Failure - starting to look like a reliever Luis Basabe - Failure - see Clarkin, also, rostered too soon, ran out of options DJ Gladney - Failure - actually, jury's still out. Looked good last year. Slow learner James Beard - Failure - sure. maybe some guys just never adjust to pro ball. Carlos Perez - Failure at this point due to defense - I have no idea. Defense took with many others Wes Kath - Failure - yes! high five me, dude! So, there's my reaction to your list. I'd actually go further, wondering what happened to Lincoln Henzman, Tyler Johnson and Kade McClure from the 2017 draft. I think 2020 conked out a lot of the bubble guys. Also 2017, guys like Blake Battenfield and John Parke made it through the system, and their junk-ball stuff just didn't play at the higher levels. Bad drafting along with not maxing out the ground ball pitchers? In the 2018 draft, they actually got 10 guys from up and down the draft to the majors. But the big misses that year were guys like Luke Shilling, 100 mph guy who couldn't throw strikes, never learned then TJS. A lot of the guys who missed wound up with lengthy injuries. The 2019 draft was a disaster, and yeah, I wonder how Thompson, Dalquist and Beard all underwhelmed. Avery Weems, tho. And 2020 - Garret Crochet. Coffey, Kelly and Horn are still developing. I think Getz got the stars through at the beginning of his tenure, did a better job with the 2018 draft class, not sure if 2019 was just a draft-day disaster, and he was promoted in 2020. Not stellar, not the catastrophe everybody makes it out to be.

Having gone through this cycle numerous times, so many, that I can diagram out the path, I decided to bounce the onus back on CWS, for a change. I'm sorry you were so jolted by the rhetorical change of course.

And that's not what I'm saying. If a 28th rounder winds up being the utility infielder for most of a season, that's a win. If a first rounder gets one at-bat in the bigs before his DFA, it isn't. I'm sorry. Maybe my brain is broke, and I can't deal with people throwing statements that are fundamentally untrue at me, and pretending they shot down my argument. I should really learn to roll my eyes and move on. I haven't and probably won't.

I have never "regaled you with the great qualities of Chris Getz". And one guy in the driver's seat is better than KW/Hahn. That is indisputable. Online sports discussion is such, that if somebody doesn't hear complete agreement with the echo chamber nonsense they spout off, they hear 'Chris Getz love' in their head, and then react to that. Yes, the losing and the lack of development is frustrating. I'll agree that Chris Getz was part of the organization during this period of failure, and most probably didn't push back, or put forth enough to derail the failure. Point conceded. When you say "there is literally nothing to point to", that is statement #1 in the cycle. I am not going to list out the obvious systemic wins for you, because you will then make up BS to prove that a guy the Sox developed doesn't count. I will then move on to pointing out late round draft picks who maxed out as ML utility men and bullpen arms, and you will pretend to laugh. That's the fallacy. Nobody the White Sox developed count, because reasons. And you're so dug in, you can't untrack yourself and say, "Okay, that is an organizational win." It has to be "zero". "Literally nothing." Be dissatisfied with Chris Getz. I fully support you in that endeavor. But when you state things that are demonstrably untrue, I'm not going to go all zombie-eyed, and agree with your BS.

You know, it really isn't hard to just concede a simple point.

Oh, everybody else should talk. The goalposts have more miles on them than my car from "name people we developed!!" "No, they don't count, because they had talent!!!"

The path of this argument pretty much always goes: 1) "where are the MLB players who we developed?" 2) I list out players that came through our system 3) None of those count, because reasons. (took too long, had their own trainer, were just really good) 4) I then list out the shitty, later round draft choices who topped out at AAA, but made prospect lists 5) Everybody laughs because they "failed". It's a dishonest argument. The White Sox are behind the league in development. It's stupid to declare that they didn't develop anybody, except for those they did, but none of the successes count.

If you want to make the argument that the White Sox are behind the league when it comes to development, great. Make that argument, and I'd agree with you. If you're going to ask me to type out the names of every single white Sox prospect who played in the majors so you can make arguments why they don't count, I'm tired of participating in that word game. Players are responsible for their own training in the off-season. If they body-build instead of working on baseball skills, that's on them. Many players all over the league go to places like Driveline to improve their skills. That's not some indictment of the team. Every team has players who do this, so therefore, every team sucks at development. That's a ludicrous argument. Dylan Cease was shaky in his first season in the bigs, as many great pitchers are, was still shaky during the COVID season, then put together a strong, solid, first full big league season. That's not a fail. Drafting a catcher with a hitch in his swing with the 10th pick of a weak draft class is more of an indictment of drafting. Not being able to fix him is on development. Rushing him to the majors is on the GM. I get exasperated with this discussion because guys like Giolito and Cease are development wins. Yes, they should have been converting on guys like Alec Hansen, Wes Kath, Lincoln Henzman, Thornton/Dalquist. They don't. I'm not going to pretend to know why.

I pretty much agree with all of this. Hostetler's drafts always seemed to get generally good ratings from the "experts", but then the pitchers who make it up to AAA turn out to be junk-ballers who would be killed in the majors. Looking back years later, yes, 2019 was a disaster of a draft.

This list is silly and subjective. You don't differentiate between guys who were rushed by the GM, guys who got injured and never really came back, 38th rounders, guys like Ian Clarkin, who 2 other organizations "failed" also. The director of player development doesn't make MLB roster decisions, trades, or run the draft or international scouting. Until you address any of that, my work is done here.

Just as I figured. You can't name a single prospect who should have been developed, but wasn't. Maybe you should call the baseball police. Something's amiss. LOL.

Maybe the Cubs or Royals will pick them up.

Because the vast majority of Sox fans who consume social media are spoon fed vomit. It's been over an hour. Where is this list of dynamite prospects that were failed under Getz. I'm waiting. .....