waltwilliams

Yeah, I get the frustration with management, but that was kind of embarrassing. A low point for us as a fanbase, to be honest

Garrett told Merkin that he didn't appreciate the fans cheering on the Angels and cheering for the Sox to lose at home this week.

PK Wrigley was as ignorant about the cost benefits of television and sports as almost every other owner of the time was. He basically gave the rights away for free to WGN (and earlier, had Cubs games on both WGN and WBKB for nothing). He WAS very insightful about TV being free advertising for the team, but he made no money off the TV rights. @Dick Allen is absolutely right. The teams were basically on equal footing until the early 80s, when the Sox moved off free TV. But even then, the Sox were still right there with the Cubs "83 and '84 -- they were the first team in Chicago to draw over two million fans two years in a row in those years. But the combination of the Tribune Company's national reach as a superstation, along with Harry Caray moving from the Sox to the Cubs began the real momentum of the North Side as the dominant team. The Sox came back with the move to the new stadium in '91. But after the '94 strike, where JR was the most prominent union-buster on ownership side, the Sox were diminished even more. And the Sammy Sosa phenomenon in the late 90s, culminating with the '98 season, really killed the Sox.

Thanks, Mite. Lots of empty seats in that film at Sox Park. Jimmy Brown was something, though -- he'd still dominate in today's game

Great story, Mite. Always got the impression that the Cardinals and Sox shared the same fan base (although the Cardinals had a tiny fan base at the end). Cards and Browns played the year prior to you seeing them at Sox Park -- looks like Brown had quite the day then, too:

And it happens at Sox Park as well. Public transportation is much closer to 35th and Shields than it is to Soldier Field or the UC. The current Sox Park is by far the most conveniently located stadium for both mass and vehicular transportation in the city, with three different public transportation lines (CTA and Metra) located with a couple of blocks from the park, along with a major expressway (connected to multiple other area expressways) adjacent to it. I

Here, also, is a good Chicago Magazine piece (from 2013) about the recent history of the land: https://www.chicagomag.com/city-life/august-2013/rezkos-lot/

It will cost millions to clean up the toxins and waste left behind from the rail yards that used to be located on the site. There's no sewage system at all underneath, so those infrastructure costs will be phenomenal as well. The site used to be the primary rail yard for the old Grand Central Station: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Central_Station_(Chicago). This is partly why the site hasn't been developed in 60 years since it became defunct. Despite being in the South Loop, it really is remote. BTW, Mite, loved your post about going to Bears games at Wrigley. Was wondering -- did you make any Chicago Cardinals games at Sox Park? Wish I could time travel back to a Bears-Cardinals game at 35th and Shields!

The other alternate timeline is: What if they signed Bryce Harper as a free agent in the spring of 2019? He was there for the taking, and his 13 year, 330 million deal actually seems pretty team friendly for the Phillies at this point. What difference would he have made when the White Sox window was open from 2020-2022? Would the window still be open now? We'll never know, unfortunately.

Colas has better numbers than Fletcher across the board in Charlotte, yet Fletcher gets the call-up. Either Dom really fits Getz's profile of what he wants in a player, or he's really trying to justify the Mena trade (or both).

They only had one wild card in 2006 -- the second was added in 2012, I believe. Sox would have made the playoffs with that second wild card in 2006. And I think they would have been really close in 2010 as well.

Yeah, Dombrowski's a local guy, from the south suburbs, I believe.

And they actually had Dombrowski as assistant GM (hired by Veeck, retained by JR) in the early 80s. But Hawk got rid of him during his one-year as GM in '86.

The Tigers went from 119 losses in 2003 to 95 wins and a World Series appearance in 2006. Granted, they had Dave Dombrowski as their GM, but still ...

In Schiffren's defense, Hawk's homerism was contrived as well. In addition to his years playing for Boston, the KC A's and Cleveland, he spent five years broadcasting in Boston and another three broadcasting for the Yankees. He had no connections to Chicago at all before coming here in '82. He adopted the homer shtick because he thought that's what Chicago fans wanted. JR said so himself in this Chicago magazine article from 2012: “The Chicago market wants a homer. That’s why he does the homer routine. I personally don’t like it, but that’s what our fans want.”: https://www.chicagomag.com/chicago-magazine/september-2012/is-chicago-sox-broadcaster-hawk-harrelson-one-of-the-all-time-greats/ Now, Jack Brickhouse (former Cubs/Sox announcer) was a real homer, for better or worse. Lifelong Illlinoisian who really did believe in his homerism.

If they didn't send Colas down, he's played some first base as well, in spring training and in AAA: https://www.mlb.com/news/oscar-colas-starting-to-play-first-base-for-white-sox#:~:text=Colás rediscovering abilities at first base,-Shewmake playing fast&text=-- Oscar Colás played first,his hand at that position.

Good points, Lip -- didn't realize Hemond had six winning seasons. I agree with the fact that Hemond had to contend with the financial problems of both the Allyn and Veeck ownership groups. And he really should be championed for his work in '71 after he was hired, when the team was an afterthought. But he was also fortunate to be around for the one period when JR was willing to spend money -- the early 80s, which led to the Winning Ugly team. But that team quickly fizzled after '83, partly because Hemond didn't acquire/develop enough talent around his high-profile free agent acquisitions.. His early 70s acquisitions of people like Dick Allen and Stan Bahnsen were great, but those teams weren't deep at all. Once Dick went down with injuries in '73, that team fizzled too. And don't forget, as great as Dick was, he didn't last long. And the guy he was traded for -- Tommy John -- pitched at a high level for another 16 years (after his famous surgery, of course). Perhaps "overrated" is too harsh for Hemond, but pretty much all Sox GMs had to deal with parsimonious owners. I think ultimately KW and the 50s/60s GMs were able to accomplish more with less than Roland Hemond.

I don't disagree on the overall losing culture of Chicago teams, but those 50s/60s Sox teams were actually really good. They just had the misfortune (like everyone else in the league) of playing at the same time as the NY Yankees of the 50s and 60s, when they were at their most dominant.

They went to the World Series in 1959. It was much harder to get to the postseason in the 50s and 60s. There were no playoffs back then, just the regular season decided the AL and NL champs. Most of those 50s/60s teams would have made the playoffs under the current system.

I think the organization began its free-fall when Kenny Williams was kicked upstairs and replaced as GM by Rick Hahn. He had his detractors, but KW was arguably the greatest GM in Sox history, winning a WS and three AL Central titles during his run as GM from 2001 to 2012. They finished second in five other seasons and at .500 or better nine times under Kenny, putting together a 1,014-931 record during his stint as GM. The KW teams were great fun to watch, even when flawed. And that showed by attendance, which averaged at around 2.5 million between 2005 and 2011. KW was an excellent evaluator of major league talent, and was able to acquire undervalued talent who made a difference -- A.J. Pierzynski, Jermaine Dye, Freddy Garcia, Carlos Quentin, Juan Uribe and dozens more. Imagine if he had been able to swing the deal with the Marlins for Miguel Cabrera for (reportedly) Josh Fields, Gio Gonzales and (maybe) Jon Garland back in 2007! KW had that deal sewed up - the only reason that didn't happen is because JR didn't want to take on Dontrelle Willis's salary, which the Marlins insisted on. The Tigers did accept that salary, and the rest is history. But the bottom dropped out under Hahn, who had only one really good year during his tenure -- 2021. (I don't count the Covid year). Despite having higher annual budgets than KW, Hahn's teams underperformed year after year. He followed up KW's stellar run with a 716-846 record, a barren farm system and consistently dwindling attendance. KW was much more effective than the overrated Roland Hemond as GM. Only Ron Schueler and the late 40s/50s/early 60s GMs (Frank Lane, Chuck Comiskey, Hank Greenberg, Ed Short) could approach Kenny's record. (Larry Himes built the great early 90s teams, but was forced out before he could enjoy their success).

Yep, exactly. I'm wondering if this is why JR is buying up so much property around the UC. Perhaps part of that land goes toward expansion of the Stadium Network's broadcast facilities, which right now occupies a tiny sliver of space inside the United Center: https://chicago.suntimes.com/the-watchdogs/2024/02/22/jerry-reinsdorf-united-center-parking-lots-purchasing-white-sox-south-loop-ballpark

Yeah, but have you ever been to Dodger Stadium? There is literally nothing except parking lots around Chavez Ravine, and the downtown LA area that is close to Dodger Stadium is pretty sketchy. Yet they lead both leagues in attendance year after year. Or Yankee Stadium -- the South Bronx is better now than it was 30 years (like a South Side stadium we all know and love), but would you want to hang out there after a game? Nope. Yet they are the top AL draw year after year. Citi Field in Queens, same thing. Yet the second team in NYC still consistently draws over 2.5 million. Sox Park may have its issues (the terrible initial suburban design of the park before the 2003 remodeling, of course, being the main problem). But it's still the best stadium for transit in the city by far, what with two L lines and a Metra station near it, and an expressway literally adjacent to it.

The real problem is that the team has been horrible for the past 15 years. At their current location, the Sox were the first team in the city to draw 2 million (in 1983 and 1984). And during the years of promise during and after the World Series championship from 2005 to 2011, they were averaging 2.5 million, which is reasonable for a team in the smallest of the two-team towns (not counting the Bay Area). People will continue to make their way to South Armour Square as long as the team is good. This is true of most teams, especially in the AL Central. If the team sucks, fans won't go -- if the team is good, especially for a number of years, then the fans will go.

Pilsen and Chinatown are just as close to current Sox Park as they are to the 78. That said, it's actually kind of touching that you are so enthusiastic about this botched proposal from JR. I'd be more excited too, if if weren't exclusively publicly financed. We've all been through this before with JR -- it's a shame he takes us for granted and considers us to be complete tools.

The fact that 90s rappers wore Sox gear has nothing to do with whether or not tourists will go to see a Sox game.