waltwilliams
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Posts posted by waltwilliams
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2 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:
Wow, great video and find on your part.
Thanks, Mite. Lots of empty seats in that film at Sox Park. Jimmy Brown was something, though -- he'd still dominate in today's game
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12 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:
I made to one Cardinal game, their last year in Chicago was 1959 and they played in Soldier Field that year. My cousin and I went to a beautiful Suday afternoon game in October and they lost to Jimmy Brown and the Cleveland Browns like 34-7, pretty typical.
I had a golf buddy here in Florida who died a few years ago, he was a few years older but lived near Midway and he and his buddies would go to Sunday Cardinal games at Comiskey, head downtown for something to eat and then head out to Chicago Stadium for Blackhawk games. I did that with buddies maybe twice with Bear and Blackhawk games.Great story, Mite. Always got the impression that the Cardinals and Sox shared the same fan base (although the Cardinals had a tiny fan base at the end). Cards and Browns played the year prior to you seeing them at Sox Park -- looks like Brown had quite the day then, too:
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1 hour ago, ewokpelts said:
yet it happens daily at the other venues. trains always packed at wrigley, soldier, and the UC.
And it happens at Sox Park as well. Public transportation is much closer to 35th and Shields than it is to Soldier Field or the UC. The current Sox Park is by far the most conveniently located stadium for both mass and vehicular transportation in the city, with three different public transportation lines (CTA and Metra) located with a couple of blocks from the park, along with a major expressway (connected to multiple other area expressways) adjacent to it.
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10 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:
Here, also, is a good Chicago Magazine piece (from 2013) about the recent history of the land: https://www.chicagomag.com/city-life/august-2013/rezkos-lot/
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1 hour ago, The Mighty Mite said:
What exactly is the issue and what is underground?
It will cost millions to clean up the toxins and waste left behind from the rail yards that used to be located on the site. There's no sewage system at all underneath, so those infrastructure costs will be phenomenal as well. The site used to be the primary rail yard for the old Grand Central Station: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Central_Station_(Chicago).
This is partly why the site hasn't been developed in 60 years since it became defunct. Despite being in the South Loop, it really is remote.
BTW, Mite, loved your post about going to Bears games at Wrigley. Was wondering -- did you make any Chicago Cardinals games at Sox Park? Wish I could time travel back to a Bears-Cardinals game at 35th and Shields!
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34 minutes ago, Tony said:
Been thinking about this over the weekend.
We all know when they fired Ricky, AJ Hinch seemed to be the favorite. And it absolutely seemed like that was the target for Rick. We know what followed and who was hired.
I’m not one to think a manager makes a huge impact, but clearly we see when someone is in way over their head and just not in control of the team/clubhouse.
If Tony is never hired, Jerry stays out of things and it’s AJ Hinch running the show in 2021 and beyond…what do we think this team looks like today? I’m not saying AJ Hinch would have just willed them to 40+ more wins, but it seems like Jerry has weirdly had more influence on things as of late. If Hinch is here, do we see a different playoff result in 2021? Are Hahn and Williams still here? Is there a different group of players on the roster?
The other alternate timeline is: What if they signed Bryce Harper as a free agent in the spring of 2019? He was there for the taking, and his 13 year, 330 million deal actually seems pretty team friendly for the Phillies at this point.
What difference would he have made when the White Sox window was open from 2020-2022? Would the window still be open now? We'll never know, unfortunately.
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Colas has better numbers than Fletcher across the board in Charlotte, yet Fletcher gets the call-up. Either Dom really fits Getz's profile of what he wants in a player, or he's really trying to justify the Mena trade (or both).
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1 hour ago, WhiteSox2023 said:
I was just joking. The no punctuation was killing me. You may be right. But that team also got screwed by bad luck. How often does 90 wins not win the division or WC? I wonder what the stats are on that?
They only had one wild card in 2006 -- the second was added in 2012, I believe. Sox would have made the playoffs with that second wild card in 2006. And I think they would have been really close in 2010 as well.
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2 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:
Wow, that is an interesting tidbit, thanks.
Yeah, Dombrowski's a local guy, from the south suburbs, I believe.
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9 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:
Well if we get an owner willing to speculatively spend and arguably the best GM in the game over the last 20 years, we'll have a shot!
And they actually had Dombrowski as assistant GM (hired by Veeck, retained by JR) in the early 80s. But Hawk got rid of him during his one-year as GM in '86.
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22 minutes ago, baseball_gal_aly said:
I think thinking they can get to fewer than 85 losses by 2027 is delusional. That's at least a 30 win improvement from now. Just to get to 85 losses.
Also anyone rebuilding realizes this is a 5-6 year job. They move Robert and Crochet and they need to fill literally every position on the 26 man roster.
They have NOTHING right now.
Even if they keep Robert/Crochet they still need to fill 8/9 of the lineup and 4/5 of a rotation, not to mention the entire bullpen.
The Tigers went from 119 losses in 2003 to 95 wins and a World Series appearance in 2006. Granted, they had Dave Dombrowski as their GM, but still ...
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30 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:
I heard this last night and I know he is pandering to Sox fans but it came across as too fake. He may have just become a Sox fan when he got the job but the dude is from New York. He was likely a Yankees or Mets fan growing up. I know this is a bit petty to make fun of him about but he tries too hard sometimes. He doesn’t need to be an outright homer like Hawk. Hawk at least earned his homer rights by being here for so long.
In Schiffren's defense, Hawk's homerism was contrived as well. In addition to his years playing for Boston, the KC A's and Cleveland, he spent five years broadcasting in Boston and another three broadcasting for the Yankees. He had no connections to Chicago at all before coming here in '82. He adopted the homer shtick because he thought that's what Chicago fans wanted. JR said so himself in this Chicago magazine article from 2012: “The Chicago market wants a homer. That’s why he does the homer routine. I personally don’t like it, but that’s what our fans want.”: https://www.chicagomag.com/chicago-magazine/september-2012/is-chicago-sox-broadcaster-hawk-harrelson-one-of-the-all-time-greats/
Now, Jack Brickhouse (former Cubs/Sox announcer) was a real homer, for better or worse. Lifelong Illlinoisian who really did believe in his homerism.
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7 minutes ago, WestEddy said:
Remillard played some in AAA.
If they didn't send Colas down, he's played some first base as well, in spring training and in AAA: https://www.mlb.com/news/oscar-colas-starting-to-play-first-base-for-white-sox#:~:text=Colás rediscovering abilities at first base,-Shewmake playing fast&text=-- Oscar Colás played first,his hand at that position.
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5 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:
The same Roland Hemond who built the 72, 77 and 83 Sox? Especially when most of his tenure took place with ownership not having real money or a willingness to take on top free agents?
Sorry you feel that way, as I wrote in my interview with Roland history says differently:
And then we come to the person I think holds the title of the ‘best’ Sox G.M., Roland Hemond.
When Hemond took over the organization the franchise was literally in shambles. He faced challenges no other individual who held the position of G.M. ever faced.
The Sox were on their way to a franchise record 106 loss season in 1970. Comiskey Park was falling apart from disrepair. Fans were staying away in droves because the area was supposedly in a bad neighborhood. In 1969 for example the team drew, for the season, only 589,000... even that would fall to a paltry 495,000 in 1970. In 1968 and 1969, owner Art Allyn was playing a portion of his home games in Milwaukee trying the market to see if it would accept a move of the franchise from the South Side. The Sox would even lose their radio station and have to broadcast games starting in 1971 on two small outlets in LaGrange and Evanston, Illinois. Anything and everything that could go wrong for the White Sox did. And into this cesspool stepped Hemond along with new field manager Chuck Tanner.
Overnight, Hemond, who spent years in both the Milwaukee Braves and California Angels farm system began to deal. Other general managers trusted and liked him because of his integrity and honesty. He was usually one of the first to be called when trade discussions took place. He always tried to get the best of a deal but never at the expense of humiliating or embarrassing his counterpart. Hemond realized if he did this, the odds of him being called back for future discussions or trades were small.
In that first off season he netted the Sox such players as Mike Andrews, Luis Alvarado, Rick Reichardt, Ed “the Creeper” Stroud, Pat Kelly, Tom Egan, Tom Bradley and Jay Johnstone. Superstars? No...but they were solid ballplayers who improved the talent and depth of the club. Overnight the Sox went from 56 wins to 79, one of the biggest turnarounds in the history of baseball.
In 1972 Hemond rolled the dice bringing in talented but oft troubled Dick Allen. Allen was on his third team in three seasons and was considered a clubhouse cancer. Hemond also made a deal for starting pitcher Stan Bahnsen. Those two, along with holdovers like Carlos May, Wilbur Wood, “Goose” Gossage, Terry Forster and Ed Herrmann almost brought a division title to the South Side. Allen nearly won the Triple Crown; Hemond was named Executive of the Year and Tanner the Manager of the Year. Roland proved that rebuilding didn’t have to take five years.
Financial issues still plagued the franchise through the 70's even with new owner Bill Veeck. Hemond was never able to operate with a full deck of cash but he kept the team competitive and in 1977 he along with Veeck put together the “South Side Hit Men” who tore apart the American League bashing 192 home runs. Such ‘thrown in’s’ and ‘has been’s’ like Eric Soderholm, Steve Stone, Alan Bannister, Jim Essian, Don Kessinger and Steve Renko performed exceptionally well and mated with established players like Richie Zisk, Oscar Gamble, Chet Lemon, Lerrin LaGrow, George Orta and Ralph Garr to produce excitement not seen since 1972.
When new owners Jerry Reinsdorf and Eddie Einhorn took over in January 1981, Hemond finally had some money to work with. Immediately he and Einhorn took part in the negotiations to bring free agent Carlton Fisk to Chicago. Hemond also convinced Chicago native Greg Luzinski to come back home after the Phillies released him. These two along with other Hemond steals like Billy Almon and Tony Bernazard led to a revitalization of the franchise. Much like 10 years earlier, the Sox produced a winning record in the strike shortened season. They had another winning year in 1982 as Hemond added role players like Rudy Law and Vance Law. By the time 1983 began, Roland was able to extract such players as Scott Fletcher, Dick Tidrow, Randy Martz and Pat Tabler from the Cubs in part because he considered the possibility of taking future Hall of Fame pitcher Ferguson Jenkins in the free agent compensation draft. Tabler was then shipped to Cleveland for Jerry Dybzinski. The pieces were in place and after a slow start, the Sox tore through the league compiling 99 wins on their way to the Western Division Championship.
Hemond then used the free agent compensation process again in getting future Hall of Fame pitcher Tom Seaver who’d win his 300th games in a Sox uniform in New York on August 4, 1985 as well as trading for a person who’d turn out to be the Rookie of the Year and a future Sox manager, Ozzie Guillen.
In the 15 years Hemond was in charge he pulled off over 100 trades, had six winning seasons and won a Western Division championship. Considering the challenges the team went through economically, talent wise and perception wise, no other Sox G.M. did as much with less.
Good points, Lip -- didn't realize Hemond had six winning seasons. I agree with the fact that Hemond had to contend with the financial problems of both the Allyn and Veeck ownership groups. And he really should be championed for his work in '71 after he was hired, when the team was an afterthought.
But he was also fortunate to be around for the one period when JR was willing to spend money -- the early 80s, which led to the Winning Ugly team. But that team quickly fizzled after '83, partly because Hemond didn't acquire/develop enough talent around his high-profile free agent acquisitions.. His early 70s acquisitions of people like Dick Allen and Stan Bahnsen were great, but those teams weren't deep at all. Once Dick went down with injuries in '73, that team fizzled too. And don't forget, as great as Dick was, he didn't last long. And the guy he was traded for -- Tommy John -- pitched at a high level for another 16 years (after his famous surgery, of course).
Perhaps "overrated" is too harsh for Hemond, but pretty much all Sox GMs had to deal with parsimonious owners. I think ultimately KW and the 50s/60s GMs were able to accomplish more with less than Roland Hemond.
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4 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:
They went to the World Series once, when there were only 16 teams in the league.
I'm not trying to s%*# on the Sox, only the idea that Chicago is somehow above this. This city is home to the Bears, Cubs and Sox. All 3 franchisers are loser franchisers and known as loser franchises.
I don't disagree on the overall losing culture of Chicago teams, but those 50s/60s Sox teams were actually really good. They just had the misfortune (like everyone else in the league) of playing at the same time as the NY Yankees of the 50s and 60s, when they were at their most dominant.
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1 minute ago, TaylorStSox said:
They never won a thing during that stretch and the franchise has always been known as a loser franchise. Chicago White Sox - "at least we aren't the Clippers"
The Cubs success has nothing to do with winning and everything to do with Lakeview becoming the premier neighborhood for postgrad Midwestern transplants.
They went to the World Series in 1959. It was much harder to get to the postseason in the 50s and 60s. There were no playoffs back then, just the regular season decided the AL and NL champs. Most of those 50s/60s teams would have made the playoffs under the current system.
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I think the organization began its free-fall when Kenny Williams was kicked upstairs and replaced as GM by Rick Hahn.
He had his detractors, but KW was arguably the greatest GM in Sox history, winning a WS and three AL Central titles during his run as GM from 2001 to 2012. They finished second in five other seasons and at .500 or better nine times under Kenny, putting together a 1,014-931 record during his stint as GM.
The KW teams were great fun to watch, even when flawed. And that showed by attendance, which averaged at around 2.5 million between 2005 and 2011.
KW was an excellent evaluator of major league talent, and was able to acquire undervalued talent who made a difference -- A.J. Pierzynski, Jermaine Dye, Freddy Garcia, Carlos Quentin, Juan Uribe and dozens more.
Imagine if he had been able to swing the deal with the Marlins for Miguel Cabrera for (reportedly) Josh Fields, Gio Gonzales and (maybe) Jon Garland back in 2007! KW had that deal sewed up - the only reason that didn't happen is because JR didn't want to take on Dontrelle Willis's salary, which the Marlins insisted on. The Tigers did accept that salary, and the rest is history.
But the bottom dropped out under Hahn, who had only one really good year during his tenure -- 2021. (I don't count the Covid year). Despite having higher annual budgets than KW, Hahn's teams underperformed year after year. He followed up KW's stellar run with a 716-846 record, a barren farm system and consistently dwindling attendance.
KW was much more effective than the overrated Roland Hemond as GM. Only Ron Schueler and the late 40s/50s/early 60s GMs (Frank Lane, Chuck Comiskey, Hank Greenberg, Ed Short) could approach Kenny's record. (Larry Himes built the great early 90s teams, but was forced out before he could enjoy their success).
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39 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:
I figured NBC Sports would just go away and Stadium Network would get the rights to the same games and take its place on all the same cable carriers and streaming services. I would imagine you could get the same/similar carriage fees and the teams wouldn't have to split with Comcast/NBC.
Yep, exactly. I'm wondering if this is why JR is buying up so much property around the UC. Perhaps part of that land goes toward expansion of the Stadium Network's broadcast facilities, which right now occupies a tiny sliver of space inside the United Center: https://chicago.suntimes.com/the-watchdogs/2024/02/22/jerry-reinsdorf-united-center-parking-lots-purchasing-white-sox-south-loop-ballpark
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5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:
Having been elsewhere around the league, the US Cellular Field Ballpark experience really doesn't measure up to other spots.
Some of that is the neighborhood and lack of things to do around the park. Some of that is the lack of walkable options or good transit options. A good amount of that is the park structure, the upper deck is legitimately still not pleasant, even if chopping 10 rows away from it helped somewhat. There is nothing visually that interesting about it, it's too cookie cutter.
This is absolutely a factor in how it draws.
Yeah, but have you ever been to Dodger Stadium? There is literally nothing except parking lots around Chavez Ravine, and the downtown LA area that is close to Dodger Stadium is pretty sketchy. Yet they lead both leagues in attendance year after year. Or Yankee Stadium -- the South Bronx is better now than it was 30 years (like a South Side stadium we all know and love), but would you want to hang out there after a game? Nope. Yet they are the top AL draw year after year. Citi Field in Queens, same thing. Yet the second team in NYC still consistently draws over 2.5 million.
Sox Park may have its issues (the terrible initial suburban design of the park before the 2003 remodeling, of course, being the main problem). But it's still the best stadium for transit in the city by far, what with two L lines and a Metra station near it, and an expressway literally adjacent to it.
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2 hours ago, 77 Hitmen said:
Good God, just say NO to any idea of the Sox moving out to the suburbs. That would be a total disaster and IMO , the team dodged a bullet when their site in Addison got rejected 30+ years ago. And I say this as a suburbanite who loves the suburbs.
One of the big problems with GRF is that it's a ballpark surrounded by a sea of parking lots with nothing to do around it. The solution to that isn't to move them to some suburb surrounded by parking lots and strip malls. The last 30 years have shown a trend of MLB teams successfully moving closer to downtown near some night life. The Braves are the only ones that did the opposite, but Chicago is NOT Atlanta (one of the most sprawled cities in America) plus the Braves have a big entertainment district around Truist Park.
I disagree that the problem with the current park is that suburbanites think the area is too dangerous. That may have been true 30 years ago, but not today. In fact, I think a lot of their fans ARE suburbanites who love being able to drive to the park because it's close to 2 expressways and is surrounded by parking lots.
No, the problem is that people just aren't interested in making their way down to Bridgeport to see a game because there's really nothing else to do there. That may have been fine a few decades ago, but times have changed and these days more and more people want something to do before and after a game.
The real problem is that the team has been horrible for the past 15 years. At their current location, the Sox were the first team in the city to draw 2 million (in 1983 and 1984). And during the years of promise during and after the World Series championship from 2005 to 2011, they were averaging 2.5 million, which is reasonable for a team in the smallest of the two-team towns (not counting the Bay Area).
People will continue to make their way to South Armour Square as long as the team is good. This is true of most teams, especially in the AL Central. If the team sucks, fans won't go -- if the team is good, especially for a number of years, then the fans will go.
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2 minutes ago, Lightly Folded said:
So your saying Pilsen, Chinatown, Greek Town, and Taylor which basically rub shoulders with the 78 doesn’t make this a cool area along with all the joints in the south loop? That the point I’m making!
Pilsen and Chinatown are just as close to current Sox Park as they are to the 78. That said, it's actually kind of touching that you are so enthusiastic about this botched proposal from JR. I'd be more excited too, if if weren't exclusively publicly financed. We've all been through this before with JR -- it's a shame he takes us for granted and considers us to be complete tools.
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8 minutes ago, Quin said:
You're talking like...stadium buster acts. The Taylor Swift and Beyonce Tours alone.
But this dude on the bears reddit already did the math, so I'm gonna go with him:
Outside of those events, an area around the Bears stadium is going to be dead if it's in Arlington Heights. No one is going to be a tourist in Arlington Heights. And if it's in Chicago, a football stadium takes up the entire plot.
Also lmao @ no one knows the Sox outside of Chicago. That's such a ridiculous notion that it barely worths refuting, other than the fact that it's the #3 best selling hat in baseball behind the Yankees and Dodgers. Yes, that mostly has to do with its connection to hip-hop fashion, but they have an actual brand.
The fact that 90s rappers wore Sox gear has nothing to do with whether or not tourists will go to see a Sox game.
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3 minutes ago, Lightly Folded said:
Been here for seven decades. The design for this proposed park indicates capacity of 35,000ish or so. They would sell out every game for a few years to start and build fan support along the way. You want to keep the Sox the 2nd team then keep the at 35th st. There is NO reason why two MLB teams can’t be co-equals in a city like Chicago. The Sox have to come out of their backwater existence in Bridgeport and join the outside world via the 78.
That explains it -- you're old (like me). So you look at the Sox as they were in the Go-Go era. Well, it's not that way anymore. The Sox will never be co-equals to the Cubs -- that ship sailed 30 years ago. Wrigley Field is one of the premier destinations in sports -- it's a fact and we can't change that. And new baseball-only stadiums don't necessarily move the needle anymore. PNC Park in Pittsburgh is lauded as one of the most beautiful facilities in baseball, located right next to the river, with beautiful views of the skyline. And they've drawn worse than the Sox for almost the entire time the Pirates have played there, because the team consistently sucks.
The Sox can draw well anywhere that they play (the current Sox Park or somewhere new), but the team has to win. It was that way 70 years ago, and it's that way today.
I honestly don't care where the Sox play -- I'm fine with Armour Square (the actual neighborhood that the Sox play in now). Or I'm fine with the 78. I don't agree with an entirely publicly funded facility -- it's wasteful and counter-productive. And, if the Bears are indeed partially paying for their stadium, than that's makes more financial sense than some bells-and-whistles baseball-only park for a sport with a fan base that continues to get older.
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2 minutes ago, Lightly Folded said:
What the Bears pretend and what they do remain to be seen. They will ask for some public financing for the stadium itself. The Bears continuously lie but are clever about it. Your statement about the sox and tourist coming to the 78 is ludicrous.
I'm guessing you're not from Chicago.
CHSN to be available on antenna in Chicago
in Pale Hose Talk
Posted
PK Wrigley was as ignorant about the cost benefits of television and sports as almost every other owner of the time was. He basically gave the rights away for free to WGN (and earlier, had Cubs games on both WGN and WBKB for nothing). He WAS very insightful about TV being free advertising for the team, but he made no money off the TV rights.
@Dick Allen is absolutely right. The teams were basically on equal footing until the early 80s, when the Sox moved off free TV. But even then, the Sox were still right there with the Cubs "83 and '84 -- they were the first team in Chicago to draw over two million fans two years in a row in those years.
But the combination of the Tribune Company's national reach as a superstation, along with Harry Caray moving from the Sox to the Cubs began the real momentum of the North Side as the dominant team. The Sox came back with the move to the new stadium in '91. But after the '94 strike, where JR was the most prominent union-buster on ownership side, the Sox were diminished even more. And the Sammy Sosa phenomenon in the late 90s, culminating with the '98 season, really killed the Sox.