RagahRagah

This is another reason Hahn not signing him is a failure. Our rep is likely not stellar for numerous obvious reasons, to the point where the "FA's always sign with whoever offers the most money" became an exception seemingly only for us.

Hopeful that we hire back an arrogant loudmouth who literally quit on the team? No. Too many fans have such low standards and expectations.

Not "kidnapping" Wheeler is one. Yes, that was a failure. Not nabbing any of the several available quality SP starters over the last 2 years aside from the 2 you mentioned, all of whom I named earlier in the thread, is the main thing. Not sure why this needs constant mentioning.

Another person who doesn't understand grading things by process rather than result, I see. Your sample size of "free agents" is at best the same as the amount that have been poor anyway. You're also not taking into account all the perfect fits for this team he failed to sign, and that's not even taking into consideration the whiffs on Machado and Wheeler.

If that opinion shocks you then you haven't been on this board much this year. There has been a ton of analysis on how bad his FA signings have gone, not to mention how many have been missed out on or struck out on. Hahn's strong point has been extensions.

And honestly I'd say the majority of us don't have that confidence in Hahn. And with good reason.

I hope you realize even in the worst case scenario of what you proposed, we'd still be in much better shape than we are now. If we don't go after premium pitching, better pray on the moon Kopech comes back and gets back up to speed AND reaches his full potential and FAST, because otherwise we are not going to get over the hump.

Subjectivity is not an issue. Your faulty logic is.

It's not convoluted. It's pretty plainly spoken. If it's convoluted to you it's because you have brought up numerous things that are besides the point; you made it convoluted. Again, I could care less what we "disagree" on. Your logic simply doesn't work and negates any point of ever discussing the negative effects of anything. Your "point" isn't valid.

Really? So you follow up by being considerably more childish WHILE failing to provide cointerpoints when he actually provided one? That's called concession. You were simply looking for an out, found it and took it. Again, bullshit logic to be frank. The fact that you claim that it simply happens (probably a fair assumption, agreeably) doesn't make it okay. That's just absurd, grade school level thinking. "Hey, everyone's doing it! So that makes it okay!" The guys cheated and they got caught and they deserve everything they get. Especially when numerous of them act like arrogant douche bags in response to the backlash. People calling him a hero is something called hyperbole. Well, what some people say is not necessarily what I say, and I disagree although I do believe the punishment should have been harsher. That said, that's not actually the point here. You keep deflecting and bringing up things that have nothing to do with the actual point. Hilariously enough, altuve's involvement and subsequent response was not exactly the smoothest.

You do realize what you quoted from me was directed to YOU, right? The one being snarky was YOU. And your clearly poor logic is what was "dumb." Your response is classic projection. I also don't think anyone seriously called him a hero and I'm not sure how the Astros aren't villains in this story. Feel free to elaborate, but you seem to have made it clear that you can't. (Which is the natural result of being invalidated)

My apologies, I should have stated and / or. And I believe I am correct. At least a few of those names were definitely worth going after in spending the money on. Lynn and McHugh were a little older but both serviceable at the very least. And frankly people's recent obsession with age is also amusing to me as well. As soon as someone is even approaching 30 all of a sudden no one seemingly thinks they are worth a shit anymore and it is mind-boggling to me. Lynn is dealing and could have been had easily, who cares how old he is? We also have had the money to spare to take at least 1 risk anyway. You even somewhat agreed with me about the rest so I'm not sure where your quarrel is. As I stated, those guys were absolutely worth going after and not having done so (frankly you having "no qualms" is irrelevant) so has put us in a pickle (imagine that after so many people were shortsighted here and complained we were acquiring "too much" pitching) where we are now essentially aiming for the moon with ONE TOR guy who for multiple reasons will likely not end up here. Hahn royally fucked up where it pertains to pitching the last few seasons.

I love the uppity desperation responses from people who have lost an argument.

Wow. Really? Last 2 years free agents: Cole (yes, no way it was gonna happen but it could have), Wheeler, Corbin, McHugh, Eovaldi, Ryu, Lynn and that's not even the total list. I don't think going after Gio Gonzalez was a bad move, but that one just didn't work out. But that's no excuse to not go after TOR starters or at least another solid option (besides Dallas, who I was fine with as a tier 2.5 option seemingly at best at the time). Not to mention a lot of decent relievers that have been out there the last couple years that we didn't have, either. Luckily, some guys in our pen are coming into their own but that's besides the point.

Tl;dr summary: As much as we're all happy Hahn canned Ricky and Coop, the fact we even have to have this conversation with all valid points relevant to it (ie. Good or not, Stroman reeks of that typical White Sox aura for seeking pitching) is a testament to how badly he failed to acquire quality, young starting pitching last year and at the deadline when there were a good amount to be had. IMO getting Bauer is an absolute must, Stroman or no Stroman.

A LOT more actually, but that is far besides the relevant point here. They deserve everything they get. If your logic is "well, no one's dying so it's not a big deal" then there's really no point for repercussions or criticism over anything else, is there? Again, they are getting off EASY. Heckling is the least of it.

Dude, when you cheat, AND act like an arrogant douchebag after being caught... you reap what you sow. You made your bed and now have to lie in it. And you deserve it. And they got off so damn easy. No fans in the stands to boo them out of stadiums and many less games for them to get raw treatment.

People aren't dying so it's cool. Such a weak deflection.

The fact we need to actually propose this hypothetical is infuriating.

Us "fools" clearly explained why this proposal is silly. If your whole proposal is based on an "If Sale is healthy" it only proves our point more. Let this one go. There's no point to it and there's a lot of better directions to go in.

So you want to abandon ship on our best pitcher and assume he will only get worse and make big trades that literally solve none of our problems. I guess you were one who didn't want to sign him in the first place. And Sale might be damaged goods anyway. Why engage in a trade with so much risk activity on both sides? If this is the case, just trade Grandal and more for pitching, sign McCann to a deal and don't waste resources on a catcher when you don't need one. Or... just don't do any of this because none of it is really addressing any of our issues, lol. Payroll should not be that big of a concern right now. We're only going to go backwards. All these gymnastics to attempt to save a few bucks and avoid a potential risk we shouldn't worry about... to take on a possibly much bigger risk? This is all one big headscratcher.

Yes, I do. You're missing my point. We need to acquire more starting pitching. And we can do that without worrying that much about salary; I don't think that's exactly necessary. Trading our literal best for another one is counterproductive; it doesn't address any problems at all. We should be focused on simply adding more pitching, not trading quality starters for other quality starters. It literally does nothing to fix our actual problem. Aside from that, trading Grandal is a mixed bag possibility. I still think we should try to lock up McCann. If it's established we are trading Grandal, it means McCann gets what he wants, which is a starting position job. This wold be an easily possible scenario. Why trade for anther catcher then? Pitching is what we need.

Dealing Dallas to get another starter kinda defeats the purpose of going after one in the first place. We take one step forward and back at the same time. We also have McCann, so why trade a star catcher and seek another catcher rather than more pitching?. Not sure what the thought process is here...

I don't think the Astros are gonna get any sympathy from anyone. They are SO lucky this year of all years we couldn't have any fans in the stands, they were going to get absolutely eviscerated.

Again, the failure of understanding the basic concept of putting your team in the best position to win is what is at play. And it's mind-boggling to me. If you followed the right process and lose it's ok. If you keep making bad decision after bad decision then blame rightfully goes on you for a loss. That's just the way it is. And if that isn't logical to a person then there's never any reason to hold the manager accountable for anything. But this isn't exclusive. A lot of fans don't give their team incentive to improve or hold anyone accountable for anything except the players.