Look at Ray Ray Run

Yes, sure, and most people who actually create these metrics and people who work in analytics and asses these metrics will tell you that the confidence level in regards to those stats are low and that catcher evaluation from an analytical standpoint is in its infancy stages. Being a good received is 90% of catching defense and there is no efficient grade, beyond "framing" which has it's own problems, to judge a catchers talent. Hence why I said to ask pitchers. Giolito certainly disagrees with your analytical assessment and so do I and I'm, likely, much more analytically driven than you - it is likely a weakness of mine as I struggle to seperate stats from "intangibles" because I find them overrated and I cant put a value on them so I ignore them 99.9% of the time. Catching is not one of those times.

McCann is clearly a very good defensive catcher and game caller. He does the work most people never see. If you want to know how good a catcher is, ask his pitchers... nothing more.

Sounds to me like he learned the same way a lot of players learn... from each other. Then he told the Soxs analytical and video guys he was interested and they supplied him with the necessary information required to better himself. That's how most players get better - through a want-to.

Yes, I dont believe in the validity of pitch framing as its value is derived solely from umpires failures. I also dont believe it's a consistent skill as the variance is through the roof.

My goodness. Flowers was a counterpoint to a statement questioning the Sox ability to develop a catcher (once again, greatly overvaluing player development as some thing that makes or breaks all players) by pointing to a guy who got statistically better, by a lot, once he entered the Sox organization. I am in no way, shape, nor form stating that Tyler flowers owes all his progress to the white Sox organization. I was merely stating that if you do believe in the exaggeration of the impact player development has, then you simply cant ignore and discredit what the white Sox did with Tyler flowers. Hope that clears it up.

Happ is awful with a horrible attitude to boot. Pass.

I'll ask you this. Is framing really a skill that holds long-standing value? With umpire knowledge and grading, I believe it's a skill that doesn't hold its value.

The Sox development has literally been quoted as saying that framing is a teachable skill. Given that they believe that as an organization, it would be silly to value framing in free agency. If you believe you can teach it, then you should demand less of the skill of your acquisitions. Also, you are now changing the basis of your argument. You cited a false claim that I said player development doesnt matter - I've never once said that. I've said that the impact of it is significantly smaller than the generalized assumptions drawn by many posters here. I'll go on record saying valuing framing highly as an organization would go against my personal beliefs on it. Framing is the exploitation of someone doing their job poorly. It will be removed from the game eventually and there have already been signs this year that guys who graded out well last year could be experiencing bias this year as umpires are being held more and more accountable for these things.

My stand is your initial post was factually wrong. You cited doubts that the Sox could EVER develop a defensively competent catcher. I showed you one that has happened in the last 6 years. So that is my stand.

I never have said it doesnt matter. Not once. Please don't misrepresent my words. It does not make as much of a difference as the majority of you believe. I had about 1000 coaches, both from teams and my own personal coaching, and development is more so on the player than any coach or organization. Its not as if the Sox system was full of Frank Thomas' that the team sabotaged with "bad development." My entire argument has been that it is much more likely the Sox have been poor at drafting and evaluating talent than it is that they are drafting good players and not developing them correctly. I don't think the Sox created Tyler flowers, but if you're going to say the Sox cant develop catchers with no proveable data to back it then I'm certainly going to present Tyler flowers as a counter point.

They took a guy with extreme framing and mobility issues behind the plate and turned him into a + defensive catcher. The organization he "went too" was the same one whom he came from originally in which he had big defensive questions.

This is a weird take given that the Sox developed Tyler flowers from an incompetent back stop to a + backstop.

The bat is just a bonus with McCann.

Catching metrics are about as reliable as Adam Engel with an at bat in a big moment - especially this early in a season. McCann has been, by most accounts, one of the better defensively catchers in baseball this year. A catchers defensive impact is so difficult to measure. It is one of the few things in which I'll actually accept "eye tests" from scouts on.

He had a monster summer and then reclassed late. He was PG's #1 junior in the country following the summer and before his reclass. So scouts didn't have a lot of time to see him or scout him.

If you look at video of his swing in 2016 on YouTube and the one from this past season and at showcases the changes are pretty nuts. His numbers two years ago at PG were average and then last year they were off the charts. Incredible athlete, quick swing with huge power. Edit: this guy doesnt know what to do with his hands while he talks. Edit 2: a little more on the kid Traditional stats also show this: In 31 at-bats against top-500 talent, he hit .538 with two home runs and a .613 on-base percentage. “He just can kind of do it all,” Sabers said. “He’s got the five-tool potential.” Despite the talent and apparent readiness of Fletcher, Sabers speculated he wouldn’t be picked as high if he is in the 2019 draft as he would in 2020. Scouts would have to “scramble” to get inventory of his abilities as Fletcher tries to prove he’s better than some top 2019 talent. “Quite a few other (2019) position prospects, just at the high school level, have kind of established themselves with scouts,” Sabers said. “To jump ahead of those guys would be a little tough at this point.” Sabers thinks he could be an early-round pick in 2019. If Fletcher were to be in the 2020 draft, though, Sabers thinks a big summer could boost him to the top half of the first round.

I heard that one mid game too in a previous broadcast. I thought they were talking about this year but I could be mistaken.

Beat me to it. Yeah, I heard that and now I wonder if they came out of it good - kid is a monster. He even said it was an interesting one.

They just asked hostetler about how many states he visited this year for scouting... he said almost all of them.. we even went to Thornton Maine to see a high school game. So he went to see Fletcher. What I wonder is if fletcher was the one with the shit attitude they were passing on, or if they like him so much they sent hostetler personally and may be looking at him in the 3rdish.

Lol he just admitted he went to personally see Trejyrn Fletcher this year with his trip to Thornton Maine

Actions speak louder than words or lineage when it comes to Hotetler.

Yes, to me Vaughn is the clear cut #2 prospect in this draft, but Adley has that catcher risked attached to him which always worries me. Still, I think they are clearly above the rest.

The hilarious thing is Buster was better than Rutschman but somehow Buster fell in the draft a little; not much. Wieters was always overrated. The concern with Adley is that he is not MLB ready as Buster; Buster was a better catcher despite only playing it for 2 years as well. That development time is concerning for any catcher. Catching is so difficult to quantify, and offensive skills diminish faster than any other position. Catchers take longer to develop... Wieters being a switch hitter made him no better.

ding ding ding

I'm not sure anyone is stating that Vaughn's floor is a 1000 OPS. His floor is around an 850 OPS imo, but I am high on Vaughn and a big believer in his outcomes. I've never seen college production like this with the new bats.