Look at Ray Ray Run

Also I feel I presented my disagreements logically and in a way that wasnt stating mine was superior - it was simply my view. The Adolfo arm grade and Cease grade were my only big disagreements and I feel I formulated that view respectfully and reasonably - supporting it with evidence. Adolfo can't go from the best arm in the minor leagues to a 50 FV arm when no one has seen him throw post TJ and plenty of pitchers bounce back fully from TJ. I am of the "read them all and use them all as a tool" camp. I tend to give them more respect and credit than the majority of others because I understand how meticulous their process is.

Where do you see that? Have they traded for a lot of CBB CBA picks recently? I had the top 5 pools as Orioles, Royals, Marlins and White Sox.

Yes but the problem with their Cease assessment is their question mark of him changes every year because he had disproved another. The control but not command thing? Come on. One of their prior concerns of Cease was his control. When he stopped walking people it became command even though he has clearly shown an improvement in the area - which is all you ask of a prospect. Another: they questioned the results he had based on his age because his injuries held him back. So he goes and dominates AA as a slightly younger player. They move on from that. Durability and the ability to pitch an entire season was a prior doubt. He did it, so they moved on from that. Now they are discussing his stuff? He has a 6-7 grade fastball, with a 6 grade quality secondary and a league average 3rd pitch. That is just as much as a guy like Sale entered the league with and having two ++ pitches is more than at least half the starters in the game today. To question his stuff is just questioning to question. Scouts are notoriously stubborn because their opinions need to be concrete as their decisions typically lead to FINAL decisions but they arent scouting for a team anymore and they dont have to stand by their opinion regardless or results anymore. They have questioned 5 things about cease and he disproved 4 of them on the field. He has adapted and grown and shown an ability to adjust. These are qualities of a big league arm. For much of the scouting community, cease is a top 25 prospect. For them, he's a potential long reliever. They are just too far gone with their cease bias and they won't relinquish it until he now disproves them at the mlb level and that shouldnt be how it is. They no longer work for a team which means they no longer need to be as stubborn. Evaluate the kid properly.

Bias? They love Madrigal - my comment was about their overreaction to a one month sample of a kid coming off a broken hand. Cease they have had this view of prior to the Sox acquiring him - at least then, the injury concerns were real and valid. Them continually using his stuff as an example for not surviving as a starter is just laughable to me given the quality of stuff compared to countless MLB players. They literally admit that they are much lower on Gonzalez than many of their peers (if you read the article, they state that themselves).

I don't know; they cite Bush's good spring on the back fields. I'm telling you, they do more homework than most think - certainly more than any other publication.

I know you don't like fangraphs, but saying they don't do their homework just isn't true. They have the most in-depth prospect analysis in the game. I don't always agree with it - when does anyone always agree with a scout? - but I respect the work they put in.

I respect the writers, but I have been adamant that their evaluation of Cease has been stubborn for a couple years.

I've explained ceilings here, but they rarely if ever put a #1 ceiling on anyone in scouting circles. I'm not a fan of that logic, but it is pretty typical. They view a #1 as a top 3ish starter in the game.

Yes, especially given that velocity tends to bounce back about 18 months removed, not 12. Elite velocity requires muscles that were not being used as hard during rehab as they are when he goes to a full throwing program.

Well, they're actually both scouts and one has worked in a smart baseball front office.

One more piece of note, both were low on Gonzalez as an amateur (as they admit) in comparison to their peers and they remain stubborn in their evaluation of him.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/top-30-prospects-chicago-white-sox/ Decent read but I have the same issues I had last year. Their scouting, while very informative, is far too stubborn and reactionary. Cease is example number one for me. Neither one thought Cease would stick as a starter. Cease showed 2 +++ pitches all of last year and one league average pitch. To continue to hold firm on the assessment that he's a reliever after he dominated a level older than him with elite stuff is just stubborn. "We still aren’t completely convinced, as Cease is still control over command, and may fit best in a multi-inning relief role, or as a starter who doesn’t face any hitters a third time." Scouts are too slow to admit they evaluated someone incorrectly. It's not as if Cease lacks stuff. To say Cease fits best as a multi-inning reliever is simply doubling down on a bad initial evaluation. The Robert part about velocity is odd given his spring performance. Robert didn't struggle catching up to anything, and I personally really like his bat plane. The barrel stays in the zone for a long time, and he gets great extension. His back elbow is usually attached to his body on balls both inside and out. He does have an issue pulling his hands in but a lot of hitters that get great plate coverage away can have that issue - especially early in their career. Hansen shows how reactionary scouting circles can be. He moved up too high after his first season and has fallen too far after last year. He's somewhere in between. He had always been a high risk prospect as his command completely left him in college once already leading to his initial draft tumble. He has great skills but a lot of moving parts. This is nothing new, by the way, as very big pitchers historically take longer to figure it all out as their is more they need to align. I appreciate all their work, but they wrote off Moncada too soon (still citing his big league struggles in that article as a rookie) and they have started with subtle negative Madrigal comments because of a few games last year after being higher on him than anyone. Your opinion on a baseball players ceiling, talents or expectations shouldn't so dramatically based on sss. I understand scouts being naturally cautious but those things stood out to me as stubborn and reactionary. Lastly, the Adolfo arm grade is either the definition of reactionary (to his TJ) or just greatly misinformed. Adolfo had the best right field arm in MiLB prior to the injury. A true 70 grade arm. Putting it at a 50 now solely because of TJ? No chance.

I'm shocked the red Sox havent traded sale for him yet to be honest.

Ron, try to keep up bud. The start means nothing. Just as eloy means nothing and tatis means nothing. I dont participate in sss absurdity.

Why dont people bump this thread with Machado's stats like they do the tatis thread? Weird.

Theo - great rebuilder, not great at sustaining further. Hes so bad in free agency dating back to his Boston days. This happened in Boston too. Good run and then a complete collapse led by horrible free agent signings.

I know this has been said ad nauseam but Trout had a 672 ops his first year in like 170 ABs

It could be worse boys!

Gotcha. My bad. Figured I just misunderstood.

Why would his swing look slow because he drives the ball the other way? He starts his swing later but his swing certainly doesnt look slow. He has elite level bat speed. His swing never looks slow. Maybe I'm just reading what you're saying incorrectly too. He's in between right now. It's a timing issue right now, not a swing velocity issue.

Hmm who knew he brought him in for a ground ball. Bad managers dont have valid reasons for decisions. Bringing covey in to get a ground ball was not a bad reason. *this does not mean Rick is a good manager but questioning this decision is just blah.

If the bad guys are so bad, he'll be pitching in after they blow the 4 run lead. Guys, coaches don't win and lose the vast majority of baseball games. Hitting coaches... jeeze dont even get me started. Next to impactless. If a hitting coach can turn around 1 hitter in a few year period he's worth it. The insistence on blaming coaches on this website is just maddening. Covey was clearly brought in to get a ground ball. It's not as if Rick just spun a wheel. It's not as if he had covey starting the inning..he brought him in for a specific reasons and his plus defensive 2nd baseman dropped an easy line drive. The Sox lost because the bullpen has been terrible. Not because of Rick renteria.

Eloy Jimenez does not lack bat speed.

Its April on a team trying to evaluate players. Your insistence on only pitching 2 relievers - the veterans - because winning is all that matters to you is short sighted and not how a rebuilding team should handle business. They are evaluating guys. Covey sucks, sure but he's on the team transitioning to reliever. He's a GROUND BALL pitcher with a heavy sinker and they neeDed a ground ball. It makes sense. Fact is he pitched the young guys that inning and they sucked. Getting mad at the manager for pitching guys available to him when his two best arms pitched 2 days in a row is crazy imo.

Lol frare threw 97 balls in a row and was lucky they swung.