poppysox

I view the argument about super 2 as a charge that owners manipulate service time. Of course, manipulation is not accurate since the owners simply "manage" in order to use to their advantage the current contract terms. To try and characterize service time management as a salary cut is just not true. Now if you tell me the owners have rejected the player's request for a change from the current contract terms...I would agree. I believe the owners initiated the counteroffer of the pre-arb bonus pool with an offer of 10 million and the players countered with $105 later reduced to $100 when the owners refused what they considered an outlandish counter.

It's what you do. You make every effort to deflect from the point being made with a dozen unrelated counterpoints. People give up because they don't want to write a term paper in order to rebut your BS.

What salary cut did the owners offer? You just live in your own little universe, don't you? The fact that a half dozen posters want to give it to the owners doesn't make you a baseball authority on what people know about baseball.

You don't have Amazon without the employees. Guess what...those Amazon employees would love to play baseball for a living.

I love when you pretend to be obtuse. Yes, back in November the players made an offer in free agency. I don't pretend it didn't exist. I do contend that neither you nor I thought that offer was in any way serious or relevant. The players dropped it overnight because it made them look like lunatics. I picked up the negotiation with the "extra fund" concept because it was the only time that both parties mentioned something both could at least discuss. Players made a ridiculous counteroffer and the owners were insulted. I don't intend to replay every silly offer and counteroffer in order to discuss the current point of discussion. I can assure you my motivation is not to sway your biased position. I don't really think it's relevant that the players make 48 silly offers compared to 16 counteroffers. What is now happening is just how the system works and both parties need to cut the crap and talk about what really matters. Both parties claimed parity was the main thing so let's focus on that.

I believe the $105 players and $10 owners were original offers with the players then offering $100.

My reply to 2K5 fits this discussion. If you offer to sell your house for $300,000 and I offer $100,000 do you owe me a counteroffer? I don't think so because you showed yourself to be something other than a serious buyer.

What "evidence" do I need to have an opinion? We all are on the outside looking in. I don't give much credit to the players for making an outlandish request and having the owners not respond. Did the players ever think their $100 counteroffer would be accepted? Of course not. If the players would have countered with $50 million I might have agreed that the owners should have countered. If you were selling your house for $300,000 and I offer you $100,000 do you owe me a counteroffer? I bet you would be insulted and not bother to counter my offer.

You are correct. I don't care that owners "win" at the cost of losing part or all of the season. I don't imagine the pro-union fans want to lose games in order to "win" either. If we can get heated over this stuff...imagine what it's like when the negotiators take the meeting results back to their respective constituents.

I don't accept the premise that the players are negotiating in good faith while the owners are stonewalling. Like most labor negotiations both sides proposed unrealistic things and both sides countered with something equally uninspiring. The player's last proposal offered was to reduce their original $105 million pool ask to $100 which the owners took as insulting and not worthy of a counter offer. My informal poll of people indicates they feel the whole lot of them (both owners and players) are a bunch of spoiled rich jerks. Delay in starting the season won't help either side in the battle of winning the fan support IMO.

If the owners wanted to wait out the clock they could make a nothing offer and then another. I think both sides want to settle and start the season.

To answer your last sentence...the 1200+ players represented by the union will start to weaken very fast once the checks start being missed IMO. As many pro-union forum members have pointed out....not all players are filthy rich. Keeping those 30 owners unified will be a much easier job. I want the season to start on time as much as anyone but I am not at all optimistic at this point. Like you, I hope the MLB makes what they think is a fair offer and the players agree to take it. If the owners make a reasonable attempt at compromise and the players overplay their hand we could lose the season.

You have a unique view of what are falsehoods and what is a fact. JR has displayed his loyalty to players and alumni since he came on the scene. I don't think he is evil incarnate as you apparently do. Feel free to post your in-depth analysis of how negotiations work and I will continue to post my drivel as I see fit.

I know you would prefer a forum where everyone agrees with you.

Excellent points.

Pro settlement seems right when the parties involved are millionaires and billionaires. This isn't Piggly Wiggly vs the cashiers union.

The silence is deafening.

I wish! He gets free seats in the press box...all I get is grief.

Not to worry...Spring is right around the corner.

Just attempting to put a little sunshine in your day?.

Thank you Texsox. The analogy used by 2K5 was so off the money it left me speechless.

I believe Super-2 status and this 10-105 million pool are all tied together in some ways that have been left unclear in the reporting so far. It should be clear to you that it is the owners who are working feverishly to get the season started and the union is dragging its collective feet.

Who said anything about cutting salaries? What does commission sales have to do with anything? If you want to see rising prices...keep overpaying the help.

All of the players are nice people without a greedy bone in their bodies.

If you offered to sell someone a car for $15,000 and a guy offered you $2000...would you counter? I would say come back when you want to get serious. I think the owners should get a lot of credit for attempting to speed it up. Typical of unions...the players asked for a boatload of stuff they knew would be rejected. I was actually surprised when the owners didn't have a laundry list of silly stuff themselves. Mediation will speed it up for sure but if the players overplay their hand talks will come to a screeching halt and the season then gets to be in jeopardy. It was surprising to me that the owners didn't slow play this and let their superior financial position and unity wear down the players. After all, probably 80% or more of the players are going to gain nothing out of this work stoppage.