YourWhatHurts

Eaton still makes tons of sense regardless. This is TA & Abreus team, Giolito's team, etc. He's walking into a brand new, completely different clubhouse. The only issues are FO issues. Of course we all know about KW's grudges and same with the dorf, but Eaton's lower pricetag and short-term "make good" deal potential probably wins him a lot of favor from the dorf. But I still doubt KW would be a man about it.

He dumped buyouts to Nate Jones and Wellington Castillo and it looks like it may cost us a quality prospect. That's the dorf. One person here once mocked me for having a "schtick" when I brought up the Poreda draft where we passed on Porcello to take Poreda, and this moron kept going on about how the Sox are so different now etc. etc. No they are not. They still do not operate to their greatest potential. They make petty moves which cost the franchise later and which set the franchise back unnecessarily. And I forget why I mentioned Porcello but I think it had something to do with the lasting effects of decisions. If you take a quality prospect -- the guy you actually want on a talent basis -- and it works out, then there is all of the time he can play for you on your team, or the value of a trade he is included in, or the value of the winning product on the field, or the value of the draft pick you get when he's walking out the door if qualified, etc. Sure the draft rules changed and the Sox stopped acting the way they were when the slotting system came in and the MLB contracts went away, but the dorf has always been one to take 1 step forward and then another step back merely out of his "principle" even when doing so threatens to hurt the franchise on a multiyear basis, and even when additionally there appear to be no real benefits to the club for the stance. For all the shit pulled in those draft years, the Sox got nothing for it that made them better, not even a competitive balance pick. In general, owners are mostly some of the most useless breathing resource consumers on the face of the Earth. The dorf serves no purpose. He is a leech, a parasite, etc. He does no good to any one, and he is alone good for nothing, and all he does is take for his self, and step on other peoples' toes and stop processes and ruin things by interjecting his idiot self into any and every matter he feels like interjecting his self into.

Spending money on JBJ is really one of the few moves that would really piss me off. I mean why not just go with Engel and Leury and spend that money on a RP or put it toward a SP? That bat is most definitely not for real. It would be so Sox to say Bauer is too expensive, and then spend the exact amount of money AAV that Bauer costs on Q + like $7M to JBJ + $4M to the next incarnation of Steve Cishek, only to end up with a 4th/5th starter, a shit MR who is cut by August, and a giant nothingburger of a bat in RF.

There's no way in hell he would have "went Illitch," ever. You are giving him waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much credit. If anything maybe he'd have traded at least 1 Bulls chip to get out of paying the buyout owed to that expensive RP we had who we cut last year, you know the guy who used to be on the Royals and Nats for half a season. I forget his name so please don't remind me, I don't want to remember. But the dorf would give up a Bulls title probably to get that buyout money back.

BTW since were on the topic I would trade Grandal straight up for the corpse of Walt Disney, and if Ted Williams' head was thrown in the deal they could have Bernardo Flores on top of it.

I thought Williams head was frozen only. There's some issue about money and what parts went where I think. IMO the frozen corpse of Walt Disney is a better get.

Middleton guy is such a dicklicker. What's the point of even having a GM or assistant GM or manager or anything if the owner is going to stand there behind everyone in the org breathing down the backs of their necks? He should just name his self "Ultimate Manager" and operate directly out of dugout at all times. LOL at the idea of having to "authorize" one of his employees to have a "conversation." And the Babe Ruth statement is just as ridiculous. Wheeler would trade himself for prime Babe Ruth, as would everyone else on the planet.

I remember arguing for him over Hector Santiago a lot. I always liked Q a lot. But I think he's just a case of being a lefty with deception and overachieving a bit. Personally I really believe in #1's, #3's, and #5's, and you have 1) raw stuff, 2) command; 3) health; 4) poise/pitchability/aptitude/etc. and Q is a guy who never had the stuff of a #1 so he IMO could never really become more than a #3 to me. The other stuff was all there but I wouldn't call him a #2. I think a true ace has all of those things and really everybody else who doesn't have all of those things can't be a #1, just a #3. That's just the way I think about it. A #2 is a guy who doesn't have enough to be a #1, and maybe an overachieving #3. Maybe it doesn't make a lot of sense that way but I like to think of a pitcher being one of the 3 types: (1) true ace; (2) mid-rotation starter; (3) back-end starter, and that's it, which is why I just think of 1s, 3s, and 5s. Q was really a #3/mid-rotation starter "true talent" to me and has always has been, and maybe he overachieves sometimes and underachieves at other times. A Q who has regressed to me is more of a "true talent" #5/back end starter. I see Dunning similarly. No real out-pitch on either guy.

OK then we agree to disagree. That said, I can see why you would like the lesser-expensive pitch-to-contact groundball guy over Wheeler. Keuchel's ceiling is lower but his deal is also probably less likely to go bad on us. Personally I'd rather have Harper over Wheeler anyway. Going from a Springer pursuit to a trade for Harper is actually a better idea IMO.

I think Dunning's window is a #3-#5, with a high likelihood of being a #4. I think the high point on him in terms of overall production is thinking about what Jon Garland did here, even though they are different pitchers. I am not sure Dunning could pull off what Garland did in 2005 as a career year but it probably wouldn't surprise many people if he did. I think Dunning is normally the kind of guy we would definitely hold onto **if** we didn't have so much top-end ceiling SP at the high MiLB or MLB level already. We literally need to make room for these guys, so someone has to be traded.

Yes because we would be getting Harper. We, again, can't take back both of those salaries at once. The only other salaries of magnitude we could send out would be Abreu (Sox aren't trading him) and our core pieces which have been extended. Ideally we would send out the players in their 30s already making FA market value. But again, if it is just Wheeler and no Harper, we do not need to send anyone out. Also I do not believe we should assume the Phils are rebuilding. My deal has the Phillies getting 2 SP in exchange for 1, and they get a starting C to replace Realmuto, plus a closer in Heuer. They could realistically look at that deal and see it as an opportunity to both save money and become a better team in the immediate present and future, versus whatever the current alternatives are (no money to play with on the FA market with numerous holes).

Snell at the cost of 6 years of Vaughn and/or 5+ years of Kopech isn't such a great value anymore.3 I would do Jimmy's deal of Wheeler for Dunning and parts with cash coming back. But I highly doubt that Wheeler would come that cheap. If Dunning is the centerpiece then we're probably not getting any cash back and the second piece is of quality, like Heuer or something, and definitely something we would miss. Keep in mind we are now going to be bidding against other clubs for Wheeler. Some of these clubs might rather have a cheaper Wheeler than Bauer at whatever his sexy-as-fuck agent is asking for.

People trying to disparage my Keuchel + Grandal for Wheeler + Harper deal, why don't you honestly try to rank these 4 players 1-4 in terms of which players are the best players first. My list: 1) Harper 2) Wheeler 3) Keuchel 4) Grandal There are other variations but if you're honest we're getting the 2 best players in the deal. Also we could just sign McCann! instead of Realmuto, if it came to that. And if no McCann, with the kind of lineup we would be putting out 1-7, we could afford to sign a defensive-first C to hit 8th with Madrigal 9th and we would be just fine offensively.

1) In my deal we are getting Harper also. We probably do nto need to send out money if we're only taking back Wheeler. But then it takes us out of the running for both Bauer and Springer, and probably caps our next SP at 8-9M or less. 2) 2 really good pitchers? Wouldn't we have 3 if we kept Keuchel? 3) We don't have "junk" behind our veterans. We have some excellent young pitching prospects.

I agree that losing Cease and Heuer could hurt, if that is what you are implying. But I think it would have to be done.

There is no way in hell the Sox are taking on salary like that without either 1) sending more salary out, or 2) adding a boatload of top prospects to get the Phillies to eat cash. Option 2 should never be an option. Option 1 is what? If we didn't send out Grandal and Keuchel, who else is there? Moncada? Eloy? Robert? Yeah right, not happening. And the Sox aren't sending out Abreu no matter what, so it's a pretty obvious move.

Okay so this: Harper + Wheeler for Grandal + Keuchel + Cease + Heuer + Adolfo Sign Realmuto This is retribution for those fuckwads who threw shit at Stacey King and Neil Funk in the playoffs that one year ... actually for proper retribution we should make that deal while holding out Cease and Heuer

Agree but Keuchel is still a P. This stuff is on the ownership first, lesser front office second, manager third, coaching staff fourth, hitters fifth, pitchers sixth IMO. He's the least guilty of them all, even though he's guilty.

Grandal is tailor-made for a pitcher like Keuchel. Everything Dallas throws is slow and he tries to keep it down. He needs to work outside of the Kzone. He wants a C who can buy him strikes off of the plate to get hitters to make contact outside of the zone. He only throws 3 pitches and really it often seems just like one pitch he's playing around with. He needs no extra coaching on the mound, has no late-breaking, hard-moving anything, no high velocity FB, needs no help with pitch selection, and can probably handle just about everything his self. Keuchel is probably one of the easiest SPs in all of baseball for a C to catch. All he needs is a good target who can buy him some strikes so he doesn't have to keep all of his slow stuff in the middle of the plate. None of this stuff describes the rest of the Sox current or projected future rotation.

Plesac is a lower ceiling overachiever type. I brought up the RA Dickey trade for D-Arnaud and Syndergaard before when the topic was discussed. Plesac deals are the kinds of deals this team should try to avoid. We would be likely to give up at least 1 if not 2 players close to MLB ready or who are already MLB ready with higher ceilings than the player we are acquiring. It would be hard to see any Plesac deal happen where the Sox could look at it on paper and say "Yeah we're getting the best player in the deal here."

LOL like you know anything at all about how McCann is going to fare in a greater number of ABs. What happens when he is still a solid-average or better offensive player? Obviously Realmuto is better. The Mets are probably still in the picture but they don't want to bid against themselves. Agents misread markets all of the time. If Realmuto is still sitting around in mid-January it shouldn't be a huge surprise anymore.

That was an excellent listen. This guy clearly knows his stuff. Also he noted that Kopech is above Stiever in his ranking but he wanted to talk about Stiever first and more because he is more of an unknown. His ranking of the top 4: 1) Vaughn 2) Crochet 3) Kopech 4) Stiever. He also seems to rank the next 3 pitchers in the order of Kelly, then Dalquist due to polish, then Thompson who has a very high ceiling but has a lot of work to do. I love Stiever as a prospect and it's nice to see him get some more love. Law had Stiever I believe 5th or 6th, very highly rated also. There is a reason for it, even though fake insiders like Dipshit Beefstick etc. think he's not even a quality piece in a trade, and know-nothing posters here would give him up apparently for a bag of balls. This is definitely a guy to hold onto at least a bit longer. As this prospect host details, there is a lot to like about Stiever and he is one of these guys on a fast upward trajectory. You don't want to give a guy away right in the middle of his rapid growth period. It's far better to let that growth continue until it appears to stop, and then judge what you have then at that point. I also love the ranking of Crochet so high. It's really hard to disagree with that after seeing him. This prospect guy goes into a lot of detail on Crochet as well. Also on Sheets, he gives a bit of info there as well. Sounds like he has a lot to work one to really be considered a quality prospect. And no mention of Madrigal in there. Yep this guy sounds legit to me. Great listen IMO.

Smarter? Specialization and experience in specialization is what you are talking about. Specialization yields intelligence over very many fields. Yet people like you think that some guy who is a data scientist is like the most capable person in the world or whatever. If some data scientists were really as great as you think they are there wouldn't be so many bad contracts around. The fact is, like Jack was saying, nobody really knows what the future holds. Teams spend money in several directions to try to make the best educated guesses they can. That's all it is. Nobody really knows.

You obviously cannot understand much unless it is fed to you via fangraphs so I will try again. Baseball overhires and overpays because they can. An overpaid overhire doing the same job that some other person with a less impressive resume who is accustomed to a smaller salary may look impressive to a fat rich owner, but in actuality, it is unnecessary. You don't need a culinary degree to work at Burger King. Jack is right. At the end of the day, nobody knows. And no, people like Jim Bowden are still all over the place in various roles in baseball. Scouting is also still a thing. The numbers guys are a small part of the puzzle. But as always you grossly overstate the importance of that part of the puzzle in like every single post you make here.

What does everyone think? What does he get in FA? Years? AAV? Total dollars? Is it worth maybe trying an under-the-radar move and dealing Madrigal for a RF or SP, then signing Semien? I think Semien would be willing to play 2B. I mean, is 2B really filled? Really?