JoeC

Depends. You can have an Ozzie type of manager who bends people to their will, or you can have a culture led by successful veteran players who hold everyone accountable. Younger players can learn discipline, but it seems like once Ricky left, that all went out the window to a more laissez-faire atmosphere.

They were high upside guys who became trash, much like Fedde a couple of years ago. I don’t necessarily disagree with the idea that we should be giving guys like Eloy / Kopech a shot, but the specific guys in this case (Eloy and Kopech) clearly weren’t going to be valuable whatsoever with the Sox. Getting out of Eloy’s contract, any of it, is a win. There’s a lot of money to be made, I guess, in being able to clearly identify when players turn from “high upside” to “trash.” Major league benches are full of those guys. Again, I should mention that I agree with your overall take that we should fill our roster with those types of guys. I just wanted to point out that there isn’t a huge difference between “trash” and “formerly high upside.”

So you’re saying we should be buying low on our own filler and “just trash” that no one wants instead?

19.5 games ahead of the Sox. For context, that is equal to the gap between the first-place Dodgers and last-place Rockies, which is (other than the Sox, of course) the largest gap between worst and first in baseball. Basically, we’re the Rockies playing the Dodgers tonight.

A leader can have a lasting impact on your work habits is my point, especially for younger players. Yes, they all continued to get worse even after he left the dugout, but that’s my point. Once he got there, the preparation and work habits went out the window. The deterioration started there, and there was no reason it wouldn’t have stopped once TLR left.

I have no idea. They main point is that they can screw up draft positioning.

I think the point is that TLR loosened control on the clubhouse in a way that Ricky didn’t, which led to bad habits and work ethic(s), which led to depreciating assets. People criticize the Eloys and the Moncadas of the team for not doing what it took, etc., to stay healthy. The consensus from us Ricky-ites is that that would not have happened under Renteria, or at least not nearly to that extent.

The right guy for the job in 2 years will be Ricky Renteria.

Thank you for this.

The thing is… with decent enough pitching like the Sox seem to be maybe capable of developing, the team could luck into a bunch of extra wins by buying some winning scratch-offs like Fedde. It doesn’t take much above replacement-level, which is what’s sad. Getting from 40 wins to 70 wins seems possible for a 1-year blip. Going from 40 wins to back-to-back 70+ win seasons seems impossible.

You have to admit, it would be a Sox thing to have a big enough of a turnaround to get a mediocre draft pick, only to turn right back around and be horrible again and be ineligible for a top-9 pick the following year.

That’s the sense I get as well. Seems like the team and core were too young for TLR, and a year of Ricky would have been a better choice. TLR would have been fine IMO with an established veteran roster who could take care of themselves and their own work habits, but the 2021 team still needed to understand what it took to be established, successful, and consistent big leaguers.

This team is slated for a big turnaround. They HAVE to be better in 2025. Like, it would be such a Sox move to pick #10 in 2025 based on a historically awful 2024, then somehow avoid a high pick again in 2026 while still being a horrible team.

That is career suicide.

If you take away the (arguably) greatest player in the history of the sport that he happened to acquire when he bought the team, and he’s got 1 championship in 82 combined years of ownership.

This part of your post was the Getzyball strategy.

This is why JR won’t entertain this.

The difference is that Baltimore still had a clue of what it takes to compete in today's game, even with terrible ownership. JR insists on "his" way.

I at least have some modicum of hope for the pitching side of the coaching equation.

I wish I could dissent.

Yes - thank you for putting it much more elegantly than I did / could

That’s cute you think they could be thinking of us

Yep - so the drop-outs from injury would more frequently happen in the minors, I would think

Plus, I wonder if they just got hurt and fell off the radar before hitting the big leagues back then, due to the way they just ran pitchers into the ground even in the minors? So basically the big leagues were largely full of guys who had already been filtered out as being able to handle 250+ innings a year?

Putting aside the year-over-year jumps in innings, pretty good example of survival bias, I see. What abiut guys like Bird Fidrych? Jason Bere? Darren Dreifort? There are dozens of other names that people don't remember or recall because their arms fell off after a year or two of abuse, and their careers were cut short. I'll even throw Koufax on that list, as his arm basically fell off at age 30. Anyone can list up Hall of Fame pitchers with long careers and say "well they did it, so why can't Crochet?" They conveniently forget about the ones who didn't "make it." This may come as a surprise, but there are more who don't survive the way you're suggesting the team treat Crochet. This organization is doing a lot of things horrendously, but attempting to limit Crochet's workload is at least logical.