JoeC

Yeah - at the end of the day, the off-the-field care (like billet families) is really nice, but if you don't have a good plan for direct baseball activities.... you end up with players who are well-adjusted who suck.

If you bring someone in like Katz, you bring in the person (or people) who best fit the mold of the pitchers they'll be inheriting. This is likely why you often see multiple hitting / pitching coaches at the big league level. As for the vertical integration being a magic bullet... of course, the coaches, players, and scouts all have to be good enough. If you have s%*# scouts bringing in supremely talented players that don't fit any sort of development mold, that's going to overwhelm the coaching staff and confuse the players. If you have the greatest coaching staff that's perfectly aligned with the scouts, but the players suck... you can't make chicken soup out of chicken s%*#. If you have scouts bringing in the "right" players who are supremely talented into a pipeline of shitty coaches, there's no way to maximize the return on your player capital investment. Anyways, that's my arm chair quarterbacking. Clearly there's a reason I'm posting on Soxtalk and not working in professional sports, but my views are derived from what I've gathered about how winning organizations operate... and hell - even how effective corporations operate.

This part of your post is where I want to take things a step further. In the scenario where you're selling the farm for a "win now" season, teams like the Dodgers and Rays (and Guardians and others) appear to have some sort of steady pipeline they've developed that can consistently produce assets to the big league club - whether in the form of players who are ready to contribute to the club directly, or whether they are valuable as tradeable assets for big league contributors. The Sox stocked their farm system by grabbing the best minor league talent that big league talent can buy, but they've done NOTHING to develop a development pipeline. That's why Project Birmingham piqued my interest (what a month that was...), and that's where I will continue to be most critical of this organization's baseball operations.

Basically exactly what @The Kids Can Play said below: The quote(s) by Fulmer indicate that at each stop up the minor league ladder, there was a different coach with a different philosophy or "idea" who would try to make his mark on Fulmer. By the time Fulmer got to the big leagues, the physical traits and talent that made him successful at Vanderbilt had been coached out. To me, that's two different things. There's the "what to teach" part of it (mechanics, skills, approach to the game, etc.), and then there's the "how to teach it" part of it. What I've been ranting about is the "what to teach," and that's largely what I interpret Fulmer's complaints to be about. The "how to teach it" is what you're talking about - how to get the players to buy in, how to motivate players, how to make the light bulb turn on. Ultimately, that part of the coaching jobs is too nuanced and hands-on to ever be obsolete... if you can teach people to give a s%*# and be humble enough to realize their coaches might know a thing or two... and if you CAN actually teach the skills, then you're bound to be a damn good minor league coach.

Sure, but the Sox need to: 1. Identify coachable players (with talent and upside) 2. Develop and align on a vision of where the player ought to end up, what type of pitcher the player the organization sees in the future 3. Coach consistently across all levels of the minors (and big leagues) to give a continuity of instruction Yeah, coaching starts in high school (or before), but that's not really something the Sox can control other than to assess its impact on the player at the time of acquisition.

How could he forget? look at his numbers against us. Pretty sure he’s got us marked on his calendar.

I would hope at that point it would be Sosa.... but never say never

I'd like to propose updating some "reactions" to include: -Something conveying a "I agree with this, but it makes me want to cry" sentiment -Hahn

100% agree.

Yeah, not really disputing that - just stating that you DO have to give Hahn credit for the 2016 rebuild, including maximizing player value in the years leading up to 2016. No more, no less.

In other words, unless guys live up to their potential?

This is the type of team that you DO hire Ozzie for. I would basically only hire Ozzie in a "break glass in case of emergency" situation. If anyone can do something to turn a ship like this around, it's Ozzie. If he fails, it'll be entertaining as hell.

San Diego seems like they'd overpay, but I'm not sure I trust Hahn trading with them in a deal involving pitchers and prospects.

Not to defend Hahn, but who signed them to those deals, thus maximizing trade valuation? He's fallen completely flat on his face in the "win now" mode, but he did do some good things before.

Shouldn't prevent us from thinking of the worst-case scenario so we can have reality suck a little less in comparison later.

Cynical prediction: Hahn pulls off a trade for Ohtani. Pro: we get a half season of Ohtani. Con: what we get from Ohtani doesn't matter, as the team is so far out of it anyways. We give up any remaining valuable assets that we have left, and Ohtani leaves at the end of the season with no compensation in return, thus leaving us even further barren.

Yes, I can imagine 2022.

The Vaughn pick made sense from a "we need to stockpile the best talent / best bat" strategy. Unfortunately, that strategy is geared for the most success when you have a comprehensive player development strategy, and also can afford NOT to rush guys to the big leagues (meaning, you actually have a pipeline). That means that sometimes, you sacrifice some of the immediate-term production in favor of keeping a prospect down in the minors for just those extra few months or extra season so that he can live up to something resembling his full potential. If you're going to treat prospects as disposable assets and constantly throw them into a "sink or swim" environment like the Sox love to do, then you need to draft based on positional depth and needs... not "take the best bat."

The real comparison needs to be Abreu vs. Benintendi. Vaughn was always going to be on this 2023 team no matter what. It was either keep Abreu around for another year (and keep Vaughn in OF / DH / 1B limbo) or replace Abreu with a LFer (Benintendi).

"For how much?" -Hahn

Why is there no "this makes me want to cry" reaction option?

Yes. Retrospection post / thread will be forthcoming.

Can we let the Sox know that we didn't have our gamethread up in time for the game? Ask for a re-do?

Does he have any kids they can kick out of the clubhouse?

Hey now - I'm not fat.