southsideirish

QUOTE(Steff @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 02:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> SSI you're like the energizer bunny in this thread.. I know. I just feel like people asking for coaching changes when you can tell that it is not a coaching issue are looking like Cub fans and it is embarrasing to me. I thought our fans were known as the more knowledgable fan - yet we are looking for the so called easy fix? We are looking for window dressing changes? Something that will just appeal to us for the moment so it looks like we are trying and changing? I thought our fans were supposed to be smarter than that. I thought we weren't supposed to be sheep. I am very disappointed and embarrassed in certain fans that consistently look for coaching changes as a soluting to every issue. QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 02:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If you are using results as the ultimate, there are a lot of guys who should at the very least be reassigned. The bullpen has been brutal for 2 years now. Fire Cooper. The in game managing has been questionable at best. Even the players say there is no intensity or passion. Fire Ozzie. The players that were acquired are not performing as they should and don't appear as talented as advertised. Fire KW. No matter who the hitting coach was this year, this team would have struggled. Hitting coaches don't make 50 point differences in everyone's batting average. If they did, they would all get paid more than ARod and be underpaid. Shaffer is the White Sox scapegoat. Ironic how veterans acquired from other teams failing, costs the minor league guy his job. There's plenty of blame to go around, and maybe Walker does have a little coming his way, but he's close to the back of the line. I agree with most of your thread. He was not a scapegoat because the veterans are failing. He is the scapegoat because the minor league players are awful - even the ones the Sox traded away. Look at our prospects from the previous years as well. Bad, just bad. That is why he was the scapegoat. Even if KW kept a lot of that talent that he traded away we would still be in the same position. Those players turned out to be crap for the most part.

QUOTE(103 mph screwball @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 01:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> US Cellular Field is the 3rd rated hitters park. The Sox have the runner up for the MVP last year, a 12 million dollar 1B who has been an all star multiple times, and a future Hall of Fame DH. The 3b hit 30 homers last year. And yet, the Sox are 30th in EVERY MAJOR OFFENSIVE STAT! They have been slumping for almost a year. Think about that for a while. All of the Sox prospects who were expected to be good hitters have struggled. Even Crede and Rowand took a long time to get going. The fact that Walker was not replaced as an attempt to fix this team or at least to appease ME a fan is the ONE thing I can not forgive about this season. Last place doesn't anger me as much as last place while being to stubborn / loyal to at least try the obvious solution to fix the problem. Losing Mark if it happens, I can understand. The bullpen fiasco, I can understand. Not trying a new hitting coach is inexcusable. For that, I am disgusted. I agree with KW, I'm sick of watching this. I wish Walker well, but he should have at the very least been reassigned within the organization. Lets look at this more realistically. Last year's runner up MVP is either injured or has gotten very old very fast. His bat speed is gone. What happened? Something is up with him and it is not Walker's fault. Walker worked with him for the past 2 years and everything was good, however his bad year is Walker's fault, correct? The 12 million dollar first baseman seems to be coming around, but he started off horribly. This is not the first bad stretch he has had and it won't be the last. Walker worked with Konerko during Konerko's good years, but this horrible year is Walker's fault? How so? Thome - who said he was the problem? The third baseman is injured and has been all season. Do you mean Fields? Don't compare minor league stats - that is just silly. The Sox prospects have been absolutely awful. This is not Walker's fault. Walker was credited with helping Rowand during his good 2004 season. In 2006 Rowand was not very good. Was this Walker's fault even though he was a Phillie? Walker was credited with turning around Crede the last half of 2005 and last year. He is injured this year so Walker is responsible for that? They shouldn't be looking to apease YOU. They should be doing what they think is best for the Chicago White Sox. A coaching changed fixes ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in this instance. Different players fixes this situation. Trying a new hitting coach does nothing for this team. Nothing. If they ever make a baseball decision to hurt the team in order to apease the fans then everyone should be fired. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. I am sick of watching this crap and sick of listening about this whining about the coaching over and over again. It is nonsense - utter nonsense.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 01:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I move Jose yesterday for Fernando Martinez. Me too.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 11:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So if they would offer Carlos Gomez... no deal? lmao. Correct. I am not a fan of Gomez. I believe he is the overhyped flavor of the week. I think Fernando Martinez is the real deal. Include him or get nothing. QUOTE(Tim @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 11:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Don't get ur hopes up dude. Fernando Martinez is about as untouchable as they come when you're talking about position players. The guy JUST turned 18 and is in Double A and doing pretty good. There is a very good chance that he's the number one prospect in baseball when the list comes out next year. Our realistic hope from the Mets should be Lastings Milledge for either Buerhle or Contreras, and that's pushing it considering they wouldn't trade him for Zito last year. I would be happy with a Heilman and Gotay for Contreras trade if the mets pickup the whole salary. Heilman has a chance to be a starter, and even though Gotay is kind of an old prospect, he does lead the Mets in OPS. I want alot more for Buerhle though, probably 2 A prospects and I don't think we're gonna get that from the Mets. OK - well Steve Philips was on Mike and Mike yesterday and had a completely different opinion than you. He mentioned Fernando Martinez by name and said that he is a player the Mets have available because of their young OF talent. He is someone that could be let go and have a package built around him to get a Mark Buehrle or Jose Contreras. I really don't like Milledge and I woudl rather look into taking the 2 picks in the draft than have Milledge.

QUOTE(WHITESOXRANDY @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 10:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There's no such thing as too many projects for Don Cooper. See White Sox bullpen. He has enough projects to work with. QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 01:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't know if they can get anything better. But at this point I think the Sox should just take the picks unless they get an overwhelming offer. And Reyes and Rodriguez are not that. Yeah, this deal is f***ed up. A 29 year old LFer, a bust pitching prospect, and a maybe catching prospect. There must be better than that for Buehrle.

So what if it was? You see this all the time. Big freaking deal. On another note - if you look further down you will notice they say St. Louis made an offer - Anthony Reyes, John Rodriguez, and Bryan Anderson for Buehrle. Why the hell would the White Sox want this package? I don't get it.

Any talks with the Mets would begin with Fernando Martinez. Anything other than him and I am not interested in dealing with the Mets.

QUOTE(Omar Minaya @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 02:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> you'd take two compensatory picks instead of a guy who has been ranked one of the best prospects in baseball the last few years? god in heaven. I would too. Milledge is severly overrated. I would rather have Martinez from the Mets system than Milledge. If we can get Martinez and maybe something else for Contreras then I will do that deal right now.

My simple response for Cub fans is "NINE-TEEN-O-EIGHT." I start that chant wherever I see a lot of Cub fans. I think it should be something that we chant next year after we win each game against them.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 02:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If they expected Erstad to remain healthy an entire season, the entire braintrust needs to be removed. Darin Erstad for $750k is the move that will cure all the ills? Pods gets hurt every season. Even the idiots like me knew he wouldn't last. If issues were addressed, they weren't addressed competently which is KW's job. Sorry, he failed again. That's 1 good year out of 7 for him. I don't consider 2006 a good year just because of 90 wins. They were only 8 games over .500 against the AL, and tanked the second half. I don't celebrate 3rd place finishes. Now you are saying 2 different things. Unrealistic expectations of players or situations were addressed. No one said Erstad cured all ills. They were asking him to play solid defense and be better offensively than Anderson. Pods has been hurt every season with the White Sox but before that he was very healthy. Competently? Describe good. Good = playoffs? If good = playoffs then most GMs would be fired under the same standards you put on KW. 4 teams make the playoffs every year. The Yanks are usually always one of them - that leaves 3 others. That is a pretty high standard. The only AL Central Division team to win the World Series since 1991. QUOTE(Wanne @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 02:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It all comes down the the Hindsight game. I can't speak for anybody...but if the Sox knew Crede had back issues back in '05...it would have made some sense to unload him at his peak value. Hindsight is a great thing and all...and many would have been pissed unloading Rowand AND Crede the same year...but would have been somewhat smart. KW rolled the dice that these guys were set to make another run and fell back on the '06 hangover theory which bit him in the ass. With that thought...it's not a bad idea to "retool" after reaching the summit. I agree, but before the season you didn't know what you had in Fields. Crede also had this back issue last season and had his best season ever. If you actually thought you were going to contend this year then sticking with Crede was the right thing to do.

QUOTE(greg775 @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 02:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> He made a good point. The Sox didn't address the issues that made them a non contender in 06. So in that regard it was a right on article. The addressed them. They just didn't get the results they were hoping for. CF Erstad replaced Brian Anderson. LF - Pods was supposed to be healthy and be a quality leadoff man. The entire bullpen was revamped. There were changes. Issues were addressed. Horrible results. You can argue the result part, but you can't really say that they didn't address it and you can't say KW sat on his hands all winter. He made a lot of moves. I guess you can say they didn't go after a replacement for Pods, but that's it.

The only thing in this article that I agree with is not being able to fill the need of SS, LF, and CF.

QUOTE(GreatScott82 @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 05:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I hate the idea of trading Buerhle in general, but i really hate the idea of trading them to an AL team like Boston or NY. I know it may help us out in the long run, but it won't help us out next year or maybe even the year after that. Unless KW is certain there is an outstanding chance Buerhle won't be back in a White Sox uniform in 2008 and beyond i wouldn't do it. He says he doesn't want to 'rebuild' well getting rid of your ACE pitcher and most consistent pitcher in Sox history and not to mention club house favorite indicates you are rebuilding. I agree. I would not want to trade Buehrle at all. If the Sox can trade Vazquez and Contreras and re-sign Buehrle then I think that would be the best thing to do. Buehrle, Garland, Danks, Floyd, and Pelfrey would be a solid rotation and pretty young and affordable for a few years.

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 07:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I honestly think you could do it, even if you couldn't re-sign Buehrle. Garland, Vazquez and Danks are the 3 locks to stay. Floyd is just about ready. The Sox could plug a Pelfrey or Humber into the rotation, to continue the rebuilding phase. Pelfrey and say Milledge or Gomez or Martinez for Count would be a great offer. Pelfrey and Martinez for Count and it is done. I am not too high on Milledge. There is just something about him that has overhyped prospect all over him.

QUOTE(Omar Minaya @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 12:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> White Sox fans Buerhle is a good pitcher. He has roughly the same career numbers as Willis does, and has had a good year. Last year was a little troubling, and the amount of HRs he gives up is a bit disconcerting. That being said, he is definitely a quality pitcher who would look good on the Mets, be it this year after a trade, or next year as a free agent. However, looking through this thread, I have seen a ton of ridiculous trade proposals, and though several posters have tried to reconcile the demands of many with reality, it still seems that some of you don't fully understand how trading "rentals" works and what the Mets are willing to give up. Fernado Martinez - This kid is completely untouchable. There is a better chance of a transvestite rodeo clown being elected president than Martinez being included in a trade for Buerhle. Ditto goes for Guerra. As for Pelfrey/Humber/Milledge/Gomez - Omar would probably only give up one of them for Buerhle. Look at his reluctance in trading prospects for Zito - he has no desire to do so. Basically, there will be no "package" for Buerhle comprised of two or three of them. Very likely, Omar wouldn't give up one of them, let alone several of them. Many of you have posted saying that if Omar is unwilling to give up Milledge or Milledge+, then they don't get Buerhle. Well, that will be the case. The Mets have gotten superb pitching this year - and could very possibly get a revitalized Pedro back. Anyways, that's pretty much the Mets side of the story. If you want to doubt me, so be it, but I think you'll find that reality will closely mirror what I'm saying. So what? So then the Mets don't get Buehrle. No big deal to me.

QUOTE(Greg The Bull Luzinski @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 09:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It would be interesting to see how Fields hits with the people around him hitting and people on base for him. Good point. Imagine people actually getting on base in front of him and a really good hitter behind him in the order. I think he will see a lot better pitches to hit. However, he has to be able to hit a ML fastball. If not, they will just continue to throw that by him no matter who is in front or behind him. QUOTE(quickman @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 09:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well as most of you know I hate all our farm players and think they are all very highly overrated. That said I actaully like fields and am willing to let him play the rest of this year to really see what he has. Right now he stikes out way to much. He needs better concentration and needs to hit to the other side, but this season is over so why not let him play. In addition with all the injuries we have in the outfield I think its very telling that Andersen is not being called to play. I hate the guy but I think this shows that the sox really hate him too. He must have really pissed them off with his goofy attitude. I couldn't agree more about Anderson. He is a total f*** up. I hate him as well.

QUOTE(3E8 @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 09:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> He has trouble hitting behind in the count and the majority of his ABs pitchers are starting him off with a strike on pitches that are good to hit. He needs to start ripping these so he can work ahead in the count when opponents start being more cautious. Eventually he will. He will learn all of this. He is a rookie. Don't forget that. There will be some growing pains.

QUOTE(southsida86 @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 09:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, someone on WSI made that up. And to make this point clear, I am not advocating trading Mark Buehrle for a couple of B prospects. My argument is that I don't think teams are going to offer any more than that for him, and if Kenny counteroffers with a couple of A prospects, the other GM will hang up the phone in the middle of the first guy's name. Example: Epstein: I'm offering Hansen, Crisp, and Lowrie for Buehrle. Kenny:How about Bucho(Epstein hangs up phone) Then they don't get Buehrle. That is pretty simple to understand. You just don't take a package of B talent prospects because they are the highest bidder. Also, from what I understand, KW is a straightshooter. He asks what it will take to get a certain player(s) he likes and they go from there. It is not - how about Bucho - click. Genius.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 09:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Fields doesn't look lost. A little overpowered, but not lost. He's got an approach and he's not looking like an idiot on offspeed pitches. He knows what to do with those and breaking pitches. He just needs to work on his batspeed and shortening his swing. I agree. He has to be able to shorten that swing more to catch up to the ML fastball. That will come. He looks and acts like a major league player. I like him a lot. Hell, he is doing better than Crede was. He has BIG time power. QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 09:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> His D has been just fine so far....why do people make it sound like it's been a major issue? I agree, what is that all about? From what I have seen he plays a nice 3B.

QUOTE(southsida86 @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 09:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Name a 1 year rental player besides Garcia and Jennings this past offseason. Remind me what we got for Garcia again. Oh yeah, a B prospect and a failed top prospect. What did Colorado get for Jennings? Yep, a B prospect, A utility outfielder, and a failed top prospect. The contracts shelled out this offseason such as Zito, Soriano, Meche, and Marquis($7 million/year for a pitcher with a 6.00 ERA ) are what makes it so. There is no history of that kind of trade because it hasn't happened yet. Because of the Zito/Soriano contracts this offseason, ONE A prospect >>>>>> 3 months of Santana/ARod. Boras is saying that ARod could get $30 million/year if he opts out of his contract and goes on the open market. Some dumb GM will probably pay him that much too. There are only 2 teams that can afford to trade an A prospect for a rental player, and you know who they are. Fortunately we are dealing with one of them here. Unfortunately, if no other team will trade their A prospects for Mark, then why should Boston do it? If the owners finally decide that the free agent contracts have gotten out of control, and try to offer less money, then they'll get hit with a collusion lawsuit. The Burnett deal started the trend, and player salaries are only going to go up. How can you be comparing an injured Garcia to Mark Buehrle. That is a messed up comparison. The Jennings deal got the Rockies a starting CFer (Wily Taveras who is hitting .311 with a .357 OBP), what they thought was a #2 starter (Jason Hirsh), and a bullpen arm (Taylor Buchholz). 3 major league ready players. That is a lot of talent. The same players that everyone wanted for John Garland in return. Mark Buehrle is the only top talent SP available (not to mention he is a lefty,durable, and only 28) and the Sox have up to 10 teams bidding for his services. That is what makes this more unique than those other situations you have mentioned. You are not comparing the same things.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 09:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Dye and Iguchi were the two best offensive players at their position in the AL last year. And if AJ is pulling everything, then isn't that Greg Walker's job to get him fixed? If anything, AJ is a poor defensive catcher, but a talented hitter. Get him fixed? He has pulled everything since leaving the Twins. I don't know how he was with the Twins for 2 years as I don't recall him that far back. WIth the Giants he tried to pull everything. He has done the same here except for the first half of last year when he actually went the other way. In interviews during the first half of last year I actually heard him say he was going to concentrate more on his average? What happened this year? Did he want to be selfish again? Walker was the same hitting coach with this cocksucker the last 2 years. He hit .295 last year. Why won't he go the other way this year? Why won't he concentrate on hitting the other way this year and hitting for average? Since leaving the Twins he has had average of .272, .257, .295, and .251. He has had OBP's of .319, .308, .333, and .297. He swings at the first pitch almost EVERY FREAKING TIME! Talented hitter how? Dye looks really old. Don't you think? You blame Walker on Dye getting old really fast? His bat speed is terrible. How do you fix that? How did it get so bad so quick? Has he been injured all year and not saying anything? Walker has been his hitting coach since he has been here. Walker is good enough for Dye the first 2 years, but now it is Walker's fault because he looks old and has lost bat speed? Really? Is Iguchi trying to hard because of his contract? He has looked the worst I have ever seen him defensively as well as offensively. He is a terrible 2B. I would say he is one of the worst in the AL. He is definitely the worst defensive 2B in the AL. I have no idea what happened to this guy, but Walker was also his hitting coach the past two years. So Walker can get him to hit for 2 but all of a sudden he sucks because of Walker? Talented hitter? Ask for new players. Ask for a real change. Don't ask for window dressing and someone's head on a platter just because you need a change for change sake. That won't do a f***ing thing with the same f***ed up players.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 09:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I just don't understand how you can really make an argument for Walk to keep his job. What has Walker done for him to still have his job? I just have to laugh when people say it's not Walkers fault. I totally agree. However, when you have the worst offense in the league, and you say the hitting coach has nothing to do with it, then why do you need one? If the hitting coach has no effect on why this team is last in almost every offensive category, then why do pay his salary? Talent. NO FREAKING TALENT. I laugh more at the people that say there is a ton of talent on this team. That is f***ing bulls***. Where? Please show me. Pods - sucks. CF - Erstad was ok, backups suck. RF - old Dye and injured - now a backup player, Fields - rookie, Uribe - sucks, Iguchi - sucks, Konerko - looks to be coming around, AJ - decent bat, but pulls everything, Thome - good. WHAT THE f*** DO WE HAVE? WHERE IS THE FREAKING TALENT YOU PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT? I am so sick of hearing about all the talent on this team when there is nothing. QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 09:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There's no point in the arguing this anymore. Greg Walker has one job, and the results from his job are terrible this year. Thome & Konerko - yes. Dye is old and looks older all the time. Iguchi freaking blows. AJ looks to pull every freaking pitch. He is a good catcher, but not the most talented hitter.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 06:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't care what the excuses are anymore, when the hitting has been this bad for so long, you fire the hitting coach. Since when has KW acted like such a pussy? That is ridiculous. If it fixes the problem then I agree do it. How does this fix the problem? Look at the players on the field. NO TALENT!!!! NONE! You have backups and rookies playing everywhere. Enough is enough. Get some players in here. If the results are the same then tell Walker to pack his bags. The most ridiculous thing I hear is to fire him because it doesn't hurt anything. That is f***ed up. LETS TRY TO FIX IT!!!!! GET DIFFERENT PLAYERS!!!! I don't want window dressing. I want a real change. I don't want to be treated like some unknowledgeable fan that just needs a coaching change to think there is some sort of change or to make me happy. I am not a Cubs fan. Don't treat me as such. Get a real change in here. Get me knew players. This team is a joke!!!!

QUOTE(CWSOX45 @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 06:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How is Greg Walker still employed? This is a joke. Fire him already Kenny. God dammit. If he was dealing with real talent on this team then I would say you were right. However, when you have bench players and rookies all over the place it is hard to blame the hitting coach. Get some players in here that actually play the game the way it supposed to be played and get the same results - then I will be on your side. Until then I will blame the players.

QUOTE(EvilJester99 @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 05:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> KW will find someway to sell low and screw this up... You mean like he has done every single time in the past?