GreenSox

QUOTE (QuickJones81 @ Nov 29, 2016 -> 06:45 PM) I'm OK with the White Sox blackballing the Cubs when it comes to trading for one simple reason, I have zero faith that Hahn/Kenny can win a deal with Theo on the other end. Zero. I don't have faith that Williams and Hahn can win a deal from any GM except maybe Jockety. But they should be able to get a good return that may turn out to be a great return. Even if you don't want to deal with the Cubs, just be polite and take their calls...you don't need to affirmatively tell them that. I would avoid the Nats as well; they aren't giving up Turner, they don't have that many prospects, so there is very little room for error. Rizzo would probably make mincemeat out of Hahn.

QUOTE (Dunt @ Nov 28, 2016 -> 02:07 PM) Pretty straight forward question: if the Sox end up trading Sale, do you think the haul and free agent additions could lead them to having a better team? I think it'll be hard to replace Sale's value, but I could definitely see a situation where the Sox plug 1-2 holes with studs, get trade pieces to fill other holes, then maybe fill in free agency. They still keep most of their core with extra control (Q, Eaton, Anderson, Rodon, Jones, etc.) and add young talent to supplement that core while not fully committing to blowing the entirety of this core up. With the way this offseason has developed so far, I could see this being the move of the front office. They could be better next season just with the haul. Forget any serious FA acquisitions right now.

QUOTE (Ro Da Don @ Nov 26, 2016 -> 11:31 PM) Which players are you okay with cutting and getting no value on? Caufield detailed that well. And not all of those guys are cinches to be grabbed. And what's the deal with Avi? Are they really sticking with him through arb? Regardless, though, I don't see a ton of pressure on the 40 man. Realistically, for Sale you are looking at 2 elite prospects 2 others in the top 60 or so, and then some low minors guys. Maybe 3 of those will need to be on the 40 man. They may eventually trade Quintana and Eaton, but they don't seem that inclined and there's no reason to completely flood the market with our young studs. (I would move Eaton if some team will pay as if he's a 5-6 WAR player; otherwise, hang tight). I can't get a read on what they will do with Abreu - if he goes, yes that may require a spot on the 40 man. So now you're down to Frazier, Melky, D Rob, Nate Jones. The better deal for those guys very well be high ceiling low minor guys. Jones could bring a top prospect, who could still be a year or 2 away. If they want ML ready guys, D Rob would bring someone like Tilson...in this situation, a low minor prospect with a lot more upside is a better way to go.

QUOTE (Ro Da Don @ Nov 26, 2016 -> 10:32 PM) I agree. But if you traded everyone with value this offseason per se (Sale, Q, Eaton, Abreu, Robertson, Jones, Melky, Frazier, Lawrie, Jennings - 10 players) you're looking at getting around 20-25 players in return. There's maybe 5 or 6 guys on our 40-man I'd be okay ditching without either seeing more of them or getting literally nothing in return for them, on a supposed rebuilding team. A lot of the guys would be low minor players. There are a bunch on the 40 man that could be cut and wouldn't be missed.

QUOTE (SCCWS @ Nov 26, 2016 -> 08:07 AM) So far with still a limited sample size, Saladino has been league average at 3B but above average at 2nd. And his bat improved last year. If he can make better contact and walk a little more, he could be really useful and play a lot. He hit about as well as Lawrie did last year.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 26, 2016 -> 07:58 AM) He offered Samrdzija $85 million. Perhaps not ace money in today's environment, but more than Anything Hahn may have offered. And he wasn't supposed to be an ace on the White Sox, they already had one, so your point appears way off. He signed for $90 million with the Giants, so Theo was pretty close, closer than Hahn. http://www.sbnation.com/2014/6/18/5822630/...fer-rumors-cubs Epstein offered Samardzija about 1/2 of what he offered Lester. If he wasn't supposed to be a top of the rotation starter (obviously behind Sale, but still a front end guy), why did they trade for 1 year of his services? The Giants and Cubs accurately saw him as a middle guy (and to be fair, that may be generous). Samardzija was doing the best pitching of his career when Theo moved him....he took advantage and sold high. Hahn?

QUOTE (PolishPrince34 @ Nov 26, 2016 -> 06:07 AM) Don't forget Renteria, Julio Lugo, Varitek 2nd contract, Jenks, and Matt Clement. If there is a flaw to Epstein's game plan it is free agency. Also include Heyward and Edwin Jackson. Epstein always surrounds himself with an incredible support staff. His bread and butter is the draft, player development, and transactions trough trades and waiver pick ups. Yes he has a nice free agent pick up here and there such Zobrist, Mueller, Lester, and Beltre. But probably has had more misses with his long term contracts. I'll probably get bashed for this, but it's true dipping in free agency has been a hiccup to his game. He's been fortunate to work with orgs that can absorb some spending miscues and to allow him to hire a talented and deep staff. And they don't win the WS without Lester and Zobrist. And he's also been smart as to who to let go to free agency....Samardzija. He correctly evaluated him as not an ace. The dichotomy between Epstein and Hahn re Samardzija really encapsulates the difference between the two front offices. Epstein has also been impeccable in his trades and evaluation of his own players. A strong staff helps. Hahn could use one of those.

QUOTE (miracleon35th @ Nov 25, 2016 -> 10:13 PM) Russo is arguing that the Sox should try to compete every year rather than "running and hiding" for several years only to determine in three or four years, that they are still not competitive. At that point they may have done substantial damage to the franchise, the size of its fan base, and the teams bottom line. I think that's what they want to do. But to do that, it's getting clear that they need to take a step or 2 back. They "Went for it" 2 years in a row and couldn't come close to .500, much less contend. And some of the mistakes Rick Hahn made were absolute howlers. Ultimately, the key to consistent contention is to have a first rate drafting/international/development program. I'm not convinced the Sox take each of those aspects seriously.

QUOTE (Ro Da Don @ Nov 25, 2016 -> 04:16 PM) Bregman is extremely versatile. Saladino and Sanchez can both play anywhere in the IF. You guys are arguing apples and oranges here. Why do versatile players need to have a set position, especially in this day and age? Bregman will hit anywhere you put him and Saladino will defend anywhere you put him. Agree

This is a tough call. If he is to start, he's got to smooth out his mechanics. From what I read, they tried, it wasn't working, so he reverted to his old mechanics and did better. At this point, I'd say that if they think he can be a great reliever, keep him there, and try to move him in July for a premium. If the prognosis is good/not great reliever, then go back to square one and work on the delivery and starting, perhaps in A or AA. I would look at Burdi the same way. Apparently they do think he can be a great reliever, so maybe pitch him to move him. If not, step back and work him as a starter as well. If it doesn't work out for either, they can go back to relief. As an aside, if Burdi and Fulmer are to be great relievers, then the Sox would have quite a 3 headed late-inning pen with Jones, Burdi and Fulmer.

QUOTE (Lemon_44 @ Nov 25, 2016 -> 06:18 AM) Why is it far fetched to get Bregman and Springer for Sale. Bregman hasn't proven a thing at the MLB level and Springer isn't an untouchable superstar by any means. Sale is the top LH in the American, only 27, and tremendously underpaid. Those 2 are a starting point in my book. If Sale was on another team, people would be saying the Sox would have to offer Eaton, Anderson, and Rodon for starters. The Astros are in go for it mode, and would be cutting their own throat trading away 2 major offensive players. It's unrealistic to expect them to do that even though Sale is probably worth it. Springer shouldn't be a key piece for the Sox anyway; good, not great, 4 years left, about to hit arb. His best position isn't a key defensive position. Like I said in another thread, he's like Swisher. QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Nov 25, 2016 -> 07:02 AM) Why do some people who want Bregman want to play him at third? He'd be far more valuable at a middle infield position. He just played more 3B than second the last year and a half because of Correa and Altuve. To me it depends on who they have at 3B if he plays 2B; or who they have at 2B if he plays 3B. Sox have a few guys who can play 2B, fewer who can play 3B (and one of those for 1 year only) and have come up with only 3 good 3B in the past 30 years.

Sale - Goes Quintana - Stays Robertson - Stays until deadline Frazier - Goes Jones - Goes Abreu - Goes Melky -Stays until deadline Eaton - Stays Jennings - Stays until deadline Gonzalez/Shields- Stay as somebody has to pitch and no reason or Rick Hahn to rush up any more prospects; one may get moved in July if has a great year.

QUOTE (maxjusttyped @ Nov 24, 2016 -> 03:22 PM) Am I the only person who would want Anderson moved to CF if the Sox acquire Bregmen? Anderson's defensive numbers were a lot better than Bregman's. Boston package is my third choice behind LAD and Houston.

QUOTE (oldsox @ Nov 24, 2016 -> 07:56 AM) Hope we don't trade him without giving him a real opportunity. Agree Rick Hahn has dispatched a lot of second tier ML ready prospects in his few years at the helm.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Nov 23, 2016 -> 11:04 PM) I don't disagree with what you're saying, but Walker has accomplished basically nothing. He obviously has a huge ceiling, but right now it doesn't look he's going to reach it. It's very possible they're selling high on Walker. Walker has a lower WHIP and ERA than Rodon; that is mitigated because his park is friendlier, and he doesn't have Rodon's 9 Ks/9, but he's got 8. There is some talent there. Seattle may be selling high on Walker; Arizona also may be selling high on Segura. That's what makes the trade interesting.

QUOTE (Ro Da Don @ Nov 23, 2016 -> 10:47 PM) Interestingly bad, in my opinion. Lots of moves like the Sox have been known to make in the past (hopefully). They're definitely trying to win in 2017 and 2018 at any cost. Some good, some bad. But they don't seem like Sox moves at all to me. .

Jerry DiPoto makes a lot of interesting trades. Walker may or may not develop further, but he's a decent #4 right now. Arizona will do at least okay.

QUOTE (Ro Da Don @ Nov 23, 2016 -> 09:47 PM) Between 80 games in AA and AAA in 2016 Bregman slashed .306/.406/.580 with 20 HR. That doesn't just profile at SS. That profiles anywhere. Play him at 3B...a long time problem for the Sox. And he's still a prospect...an elite prospect, but Sale should command an elite (top 10) prospect + Saladino and Sanchez can cover 2B...or at least we'll have time to find out.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 23, 2016 -> 07:42 PM) Of course, Springer isn't that type of defender. But getting both Bregman and Springer for Sale is probably unrealistic...that's where you have to throw in another player like Frazier or Jones and go after guys like high ceiling but 2-3 years from the big leagues prospects like Tucker/Cameron. Or preferably take Bregman and prospects and forget Springer who will be near or at 30 when the Sox are good again. They've got some pitching and OF prospects.

QUOTE (hi8is @ Nov 23, 2016 -> 06:48 PM) If they execute things right, becoming a contender won't take 5 years. They have more assets going for them to aid in rebuilding than any team I can think of recently. True, but if they get Springer, that's about all they are going to get for Sale. Springer is kind of like what Swisher was when the Sox traded for him...similar numbers, similar age, both could play CF if they had to. Springer's 27. Bregman's 22. Part of the execution has to be major improvement in the Sox own development/drafting/signing of young players.

QUOTE (Ro Da Don @ Nov 23, 2016 -> 05:23 PM) I'm really curious why Houston seems so eager to move Springer. He seemingly fits in well in that clubhouse and fits perfectly on paper with Correa, Altuve, ect. Probably willing to move him more than eager. His defense isn't great, he Ks a lot and plays corner OF. He's very good, not great. But considering his service time, rebuilding and the dire Sox need for defense (something that Rick Hahn has consistently ignored to the ongoing detriment of his team) , I'm really not interested in Springer as a headliner, even if Bregman isn't available. Plus, given the history of the Sox FO I think Springer as headliner will bring severely diminished overall return.

QUOTE (Dunt @ Nov 23, 2016 -> 02:58 PM) If Bregman is on the table, you make that deal. +1

QUOTE (Ro Da Don @ Nov 23, 2016 -> 01:26 PM) It's not about replicating Theo. It's about doing it the right way. And Theo didn't have anywhere close to the tradeable assets that Hahn and Williams have. If the Sox trade Sale, Q, Eaton and Jones, that is as big a dispersal of highly productive players in their prime as I've ever seen. Plus they have some of the short term guys like Frazier, D Rob and Melky, which is about all that most reubilders have to sell Now they can't flood the market with them and some are better traded in July. It didn't take Theo 5 years to build a winner, and if Hahn and Williams have any kind of competence, it shouldn't take them that long either. And, of course, the farm needs to become productive (drafting, international signings, development) or this is all a one-shot deal.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 23, 2016 -> 12:11 PM) There is a zero chance that any Chris Sale deal doesn't involve liberal input from not only Kenny Williams, but JR as well. I just want him to stay out of the specifics. It's his eagle eye and lust for tools that gave us Avisail, Walker and Hawkins and many others. He has a bad habit of getting myopic about specific players/prospects and losing value because of it. He can give some overall parameters and then the "OK" if he believes the trade is fair, but he needs to stay out of the way of the specific return. And, yes, I know I'm dreaming.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Nov 23, 2016 -> 11:33 AM) When the depth is bad in the first place and the temptation to use him is there because of the whims of the front office, its best that said "bad depth" is as far away as humanly possible from the organization. Mark I liked him better in that role than Scott Carroll...and I suspect that the Sox will have a few Ranaudos/Carrolls picking up starts this year as they take their time with the pitching prospects.