GreenSox

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Nov 14, 2016 -> 07:11 PM) Fine with me. Then trade Q to Boston. I'd hold off on that; let's see what the sox can do with this bunch. Move Q later, if necessary. And if you move him, it's a full rebuild, so move Eaton.

I'd hold Frazier til July. I'd move Robertson and maybe Melky but I might hold them too. Sox pen has a chance to be good. If Burdi is ready plus Fulmer they would have 3 plus arms with Jones. That's a major improvement. A good Sale trade that adds 2 young starting position players (plus prospects) and get a Lf out there who can play some D and the Sox are a better team than last year, imo. That Redsox trade for Frazier looks like spare parts. Owens is nothing anymore. Swithart may be okay but not sure about his D.

QUOTE (Jake @ Nov 12, 2016 -> 10:16 PM) Lawrie is the type of player that a rebuilding team signs to see if he can pick up value and be traded. Seems weird to cut him unless there's something about his injuries that suggests the few million he'll earn will certainly be squandered Yes he is. What has always concerned my about rebuild is that JR could get nice and comfortable in the perpetual rebuild zone with salaries about 2/3 or less of what we have now. And I say this as one who believes that the Sox salary has been competitive enough to win. Yes the Sox seem to not get full value for a lot of players- plenty of giveaways. But that is a function of a front office that is not particularly adept at trade negotiation and really doesn't understand value.

There is no doubt that they could be in a great position to sell high. But selling vets high isn't the usual Hahn/Williams modus operandi....nor are they especially adept at executing that.

QUOTE (SpankyEaton @ Nov 6, 2016 -> 08:47 PM) They need an actual bat or multiple bats instead of just stockpiling arms. The Sox got smoked by their division last year and lost too many one run games. The Northsiders seem to win with home runs, why can't the Sox try that again? Keep drafting some hitters instead of pitchers, pitchers can be bought later when your team can actually contend. I just hope the Sox deal someone or some players to get some bats so there will actually be some offense and some young players doing something (like Anderson) instead of seeing the same old s***. The northsiders bought 1 pitcher- Lester. 2 if you count Hammels, who was bought, sold the bought. 3 if you count Chapman who was rented for a high price. If stockpiling pitching is what the Sox have been doing, on the whole, they've done a lousy job of it, with a thin pen and rotation. Now it's looking better in the minors recently, but so is the hitting. The Cubs drafted hitters, but they got 2 top starters from draft and a clever trade where they dumped a proven starter. Cubs also play superior defense, something not seen on the southside in ages. They hit home runs but aren't loaded with the slugger types that Williams and Hahn like. Top talent is not available very often and (and Frazier/Melky is not top talent).

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Nov 6, 2016 -> 06:33 PM) I think Hahn has actually tipped his hand a few times already indicating some sort of a rebuild. Here are my off-season plans in order of likelihood. 1. Modified Rebuild. Trade Sale, Robertson, and Melky for sure. Dangle Frazier as well. Sign some free agents to 1 year deals that could be spun later. That's my vote. Don't think they can trade Robertson coming off of injury, though. A risk of a total rebuild is that JR could get comfortable in that rebuild status.

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Nov 4, 2016 -> 07:36 PM) I remember when Kenny was pretty transparent about his goals for our team. 2 years ago Williams said that Sox fans "can dream again." He and Hahn thought they put contending teams on the field the last 2 years. Those 2 don't know what constitutes a good baseball team or organization.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Nov 4, 2016 -> 11:16 AM) The entire front office should be. They did a half-assed job at a rebuild while losing percentage of the fanbase year over year. Amen

QUOTE (ChiliIrishHammock24 @ Nov 2, 2016 -> 06:35 PM) Did you just compare AJ Pollock to James Shields and then randomly included Petricka's name in there? I don't understand your comment at all. Dumping 3 young pitchers when bad pitchers like Shields and Petricka are on the staff is the kind of move that put the Sox in this mess. My comment is that it makes no sense to trade all of those young players for 2 years of Pollock. Build. Develop. Appropriately scout and evaluate. Use analytics (With all of those gaudy degrees, surely Hahn knows what those are). Take advantage of opportunities. Make clever deals. You can't force it for one player people drool over because he was good 2 years ago. Many teams can add 3 veterans and, on paper it looks like they could contend. it doesn't work. Teams need youth and depth, particularly in pitching. The Sox have none, although the really young pitching is looking good. Stockpile it, don't trade it.

Why not?

QUOTE (ChiliIrishHammock24 @ Nov 1, 2016 -> 02:30 AM) P Carson Fulmer, P Spencer Adams, OF Jameson Fisher, P Jordan Stephens, 1B Corey Zangari to the Arizona Diamondbacks for CF A.J. Pollock What? throw away 3 young pitchers. Who needs them when the Sox have James Shields and Petricka coming back! More of the same. If it fails year after year, keep doing it.

QUOTE (BigHurt3515 @ Oct 31, 2016 -> 11:31 PM) They were playing to win. 3B sucked in 2015 and we traded fringe players for an all-star who hits 30+ bombs and plays pretty good defense. Were you against the trade from the beginning? Tons of people loved this trade and thought it improved our team quite a bit since we needed power. Yes I was against the trade from the beginning; he had an awful 2nd half of 2015 and it was 2 years of control and we traded a young player at a position for which we had zero in the way of replacement. I didn't see the players we traded as fringe and still don't. But I'm not going to like any of this type of trades in the current condition of this org. The Sox aren't close to a playoff team (imo), so now is not the time to acquire these veterans.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 1, 2016 -> 08:38 AM) The Frazier deal defines the big picture plan for the White Sox. They constantly believe they are one-two big name players away from competing for the wild card, and that failing to compete for the wild card every year is a mistake, so they should sell out whatever they can to get a big name player at a position of weakness. Put everything on the line and put as many big names on your big league squad as possible regardless of what it does to your organization. That's the Samardzija deal, that's the Frazier deal, that's the free agent signings of the last couple years, that sums up this team going as far back as bringing in Dunn and Rios, with the notable exception of 2014. Someone needs to tell Hahn that "Big name" doesn't equate to "big production" (if he used any sort of statistical analysis, he could find that out for himself beforehand). Hahn's "little name" acquisition, Eaton, has out performed each of his "big names"...and yet Hahn is disinterested in making Eaton-type trades, despite the fact that he outperformed the names at a much lower cost.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 31, 2016 -> 04:15 PM) If the White Sox offered Trayce, Micah, and Frankie in a package this offseason, they would get nothing close to Todd Frazier. a)Debatable; I suggest it's closer to the Sox would get nothing close to Trayce, Micah and Frankie were they to trade Frazier now. b) Context. What in the world are the Sox doing trading 3 young players or 2 years of a veteran when they had a 76 win team (that, per pythag, wasn't that good). Not as idiotic as the Samardzija trade (especially as Donaldson was acquired for a similar price) but pretty silly. c)Frazier wasn't that great this year, which is par for the course for Rick Hahn veteran acquisitions. Hahn' talent evaluation skills are, shall we say, lacking. d)I expect more of the same this offseason from Rick Hahn, unfortunately.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Oct 29, 2016 -> 09:15 AM) Should have been able to? We did sell high on him. In no sense was Trayce sold high. The trade would have been defensible IF the Sox were in a position to win AND they didn't have a gaping hole at CF and pitching depth, particularly in the pen (of course those weaknesses, exacerbated by the trade, are a large reason why the Sox weren't in a position to win). A savvy trade of Sale plus another year of quality development by the young pitchers, and the Sox could be ready in 2018. But the usual out of Hahn will yield the usual results.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Oct 29, 2016 -> 11:02 PM) That's all the best team in baseball by far has to do. Where do you come up with this stuff? They had the best record in baseball, by far...largely achieved by mercilessly pounding the bad teams. They were just a few over .500 against teams with winning records. They have consistently struggled against good pitching in the post-season, both this year and last. There's more to winning than beating the Reds and Brewers.

Good move. The 40 man has been littered with a lot worse than him over the last few years. One of these claims will pay off. Lord knows they're due.

QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Oct 27, 2016 -> 12:19 PM) It fascinates me that the Cubs can spend $184 million on a bum like Heyward and not miss a beat while the Sox only owe Shields approximately 1/7th of that and are struggling big time with payroll. One team trades 1.5 years for Samardzija for their SS of the next decade. Another team, coming off of 72 wins, then trades (a SS with 27 homers) for 1 year of Samardzija. And about 5 more contrasting moves like that, plus a series of useless signings explains some things.

Pass

QUOTE (iWin4Ron @ Oct 25, 2016 -> 10:31 PM) I don't think Sanchez is the right route to go. He had a ridiculous rookie year here and his value will be so inflated that trading for Sanchez would almost certainly backfire compared to other deals. Indeed. He was a good prospect, never elite. He has a great few months, and his value is now of an elite+ That should also have held for Trayce, who was a fair prospect with a great 2 months in MLB...should have been able to sell him of the value of a very good prospect...he wasn't. Buying high is not the way to approach things. Similarly , July was the time to grab Benintendi.

QUOTE (Carpe Diem @ Oct 24, 2016 -> 12:39 AM) I don't fault management for giving it a run with this core, but after 2+ years I've seen enough to know this team is 4-5 impact players away from even contending for the division. I'm going to sound repetitive, but this issue I'm about to bring up CANNOT BE STRESSED ENOUGH. The franchise's future is at stake. The White Sox have a once in a generation opportunity to create one of the best farm systems EVER ASSEMBLED if they blow this thing up leaving only Carlos Rodon and Tim Anderson in its wake. I'm talking potentially having anywhere from 16-20 of the top 100 prospects in all of baseball if you factor in Fulmer Collins, Burdi, Hansen. That is unprecedented a team can make over their entire farm system/trajectory of their franchise in one house cleaning session. If the White Sox trick themselves into thinking Chris Sale will somehow magically learn to control his emotions and not get hit hard bu the AL central I'm going to REVOLT in a way that will resemble Braveheart. Obama or Mark Cuban for owner signs will be EVERYWHERE. Stay tuned. You make a strong case, Carpe. But I doubt it happens...I think they will trade Sale, but at least 1/2 his value will come from "Proven veterans". Watch for McCutchen, the type of player Williams and Hahn drool over

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Oct 23, 2016 -> 03:40 PM) Your points are good ones but again, do you trust this front office who put the franchise in this position in the first place to dig them out of it? And by front office I also include the people in charge of minor league talent / development and major league scouting. From what I've seen, Hahn isn't much above average at anything re evaluating personnel (he's a contracts guy, and pretty good at it). BUT, he seems at least competent (if not a little better than competent) when it comes to drafting, and dispersing veterans for young players. He has been utterly incompetent in his pursuit of veterans...they under-perform and he is a poor negotiator. He claimed (with a straight face) that Shields' decline was unforeseen and unprecedented. Hahn has "gone for it" two years in a row and the results have been embarrassing (for a team that is "going for it"). Thus, given that he is the GM, I think the Sox have a better chance of amassing talent and ultimately winning if he sheds these vets for young players versus trading young players for more veterans.

QUOTE (miracleon35th @ Oct 23, 2016 -> 12:41 AM) As far as the Sox "blowing it up" that is what the Cub fans want to see happen. It isn't a legit way to build a team any more, because there are too many bad teams vying for the top Draft choices. Therefore, there is no guarantee that a bad team will net a star like kris Bryant in the following year;'s Draft. What Epstein did involved a lot of very fortunate circumstances, some very good judgment ,a virtually unlimited budget, and a whole lot of luck. He is also not operating under a salary cap. I'm pulling for the Indians/. You don't blow it up to get the #1 pick; as you said, there's no guarantee of that; nor is there any guarantee that Bryant will be just waiting for you. you blow it up (or trade veterans) to get good young players into your system. That was the key to Theo's rebuilding of the Cubs, really moreso than the drafting. Major gains can be made especially in July. And yet Rick Hahn repeatedly insists on doing the OPPOSITE of what successful teams that are trying to build do. Instead of dealing away the veterans, he amasses them. And not just any veteran....Hahn is first in line to pay top price for the veteran that the other team is overtly trying to dump. And I doubt it will be any different this offseason.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Oct 21, 2016 -> 09:43 PM) That's why I don't get some of the fans' giddiness to trade Sale or Q. The problems are in scouting and development. That's true - but it's also true that the status quo won't get the Sox anywhere. I'll risk Hahn trading Sale for prospects or young players...he came up with Eaton so there is some history of competence. But my fear is that he trades Sale primarily for a veteran...and Hahn has a history of taking that bait when some team dabbles an ex all star in front of his nose.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 20, 2016 -> 05:37 PM) They just fired their president a week or so ago Thanks. Preller and Williams would be an interesting dynamic.