GreenSox

QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Aug 19, 2016 -> 10:06 PM) 8 years? What are you talking about? Most of those years had badass rosters that looked competitve on paper. "Hey Paulie, screw your prime and your last good years, we're going to get some prospects. Piss off you old goateed-sometimes fool." GMAB They should have gotten some prospects; maybe some would have developed into good players; certainly couldn't be worse than the bad veterans. Williams and Hahn think 1-2 WAR veterans are special... Teams don't win by acquiring 30 year olds as the core of the team. It isn't just bad luck that Frazier stinks...he had red flags all around him....Hahn chose to ignore them. Shields was a walking red flag - ignored. Samardzija was a decent pitcher who had a great year..the great year was assumed to be his new norm.

QUOTE (ewokpelts @ Aug 20, 2016 -> 05:59 AM) both need to be fired. And an outside guy is needed to clean house. This

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 19, 2016 -> 10:17 PM) Leury kind of hearkens back to those halycon days when Micah, Carlos Sanchez and Saladino were seen as the future 2b. Saladino MIGHT still be a regular at some point, but the problem was you needed to combine all three of those guys into one to get a truly useful starting player at the big league level. Leury can also play OF. he actually could be a decent utility player if he can hit just a little (and he's hit better this year, last I checked). Saladino might be regular - I agree with that characterization.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Aug 19, 2016 -> 10:44 PM) Why we didn't trade Shields in a huge seller's market when he had some value after a good run is beyond me First, I seriously doubt that anyone wanted Shields. Even if they did, Hahn, a particularly poor talent evaluator, likely thought that Shields really was fixed (a cursory review of his peripherals showed that he wasn't). Plus, Williams and Hahn aren't ones to understand their own failures, so I doubt that they were convinced that the Sox weren't contenders. They certainly should have moved D Rob and Melky. But that would have required some firm footing in the real world...a world in which Hahn and Williams do not reside.

yes, I prefer a manager with Ventura's personality than Guillen's. Personality isn't the reason for Ventura's limitations as a manager, or was Guillen's personality the real problem with him as manager. And Ventura isn't the main reason why this organization, top to bottom, is bottom of the barrel.

The Sox have officially hit bottom. That's not to say that the bottom won't continue to sink.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 19, 2016 -> 08:54 PM) Except for Erik Johnson, yeah. Hahn went into desperation mode because of the early hot start. Danks would probably be putting up the same numbers and quietly exiting if they went out 10-23, or even retired before the end of the season. The bloom of the good start was hanging on the rose by half a thorn at the time Rick Hahn made the Shields trade. He was, as usual, oblivious to reality.

I remember when Hahn was waxing nonsense to sound intelligent about the Shields trade: he said he recognized that there were certain systematic risks involved.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 19, 2016 -> 08:34 PM) Stewart/LaRussa...we haven't stumbled to that level (yet) with Miller trade and signing Greinke too late in his career. Preller is now extremely well-supported in SD for his course correction. Plus, Preller went up against Rick Hahn mano a mano, and Hahn was obliterated in the trade. A complete mismatch, like Hahn is against most GMs. And I would be shocked if the farm is rated any higher than #25 in December.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Aug 19, 2016 -> 08:29 PM) He looked good in the first inning Perfect in fact, as Scott Merkin tweeted.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 19, 2016 -> 11:22 AM) One thing I'm finding interesting - every one that the White Sox have pushed aggressively up to the big leagues, to the point where I was wondering "why are they doing this" over the past few years was traded that offseason. Semien, Johnson, Montas, Bassitt, Thompson, going back farther even Santiago. Fulmer's now the next guy on that list. And if they're going to do another "all-in" trade this offseason, I'm not sure who else they have as trade ammunition. Let's see Samardzija and Frazier were the "all in" acquisitions. And some James Shields for lagniappe. Todd Frazier OPS: .747 Marcuse Semien OPS: .746 Mighty fine talent evaluation there, Rick. After 8 years of trying short cuts with "elite veterans" and failing miserably, one would think Williams and Hahn would have learned something.

I just saw that Ventura pinch hit Navarro...good gracious. The veteran thing again, whitesox?

QUOTE (Nokona @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 09:37 PM) Addison Reed and Sergio Santos were both young stud relievers who the Sox were willing to move... But neither brought even 1/4 of Giles' return. Williams just gave Santos to the Jays. Reed was an honest trade (that didn't work out) but it was for one prospect, not a boatload like Giles brought. But that's a good example...Burdi turns into Reed - that's a reasonable goal for a reliever...all he brings is another good not great prospect in trade. i.e. no surplus value. Burdi was drafted with this year's pen in mind. That demonstrates how limited the organizational thinking is; and how they still live in la la land about the major league team they built: this Front Office apparently doesn't know what constitutes a contending baseball team.

I take it all back. He's back to playing for 1 run, knowing Beck is coming in. Indicates limited understanding and ability. Sadly, though, there are greater problems. And on edit, after Ventura makes the affirmative decision to play for one run in the 7th, the Sox, unsurprisingly, lose by 1 run.

I think Ventura is improving as a manager, and his strategic mistakes are declining (that nutty bunt of the 2nd batter of the game with Shields on the mound notwithstanding). Yea people can yak about the pen and Albers, but is there a point in wearing out Nate Jones? His teams the last 3 seasons haven't really tanked and and have played to their talent level. I don't think he'll be back and might be used as a convenient excuse for the mistakes of the front office. Steverson, too, who I think has done some decent work with some of the young players of limited ability.

In terms of long term impact and development, im more excited about those walks from Anderson than if they were hits. He has gotten a lot of 3 ball counts during his time, but showing the ability to lay off and take ball 4 portends well....gotta throw him a strike to get him out.

Nice work by the bullpen tonight...kept the team in striking distance. They did a good job last night as well. I'm impressed with Turner...he may have been the most abysmal starting pitcher I've ever seen, but he is respectable in the pen.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 05:12 PM) Between the different CBAs and the different slotting and all the other stuff that factors into the draft, it's so dumb to evaluate the draft like, "Well historically this picks amounts to this." "The best player at #26 pick over the last ten years is player X!" "Well player Y went 32!" It's nowhere near pure in a meritocratic sense. It's a crap shoot. The relief market is very high right now and the Sox haven't even decided what they're going to do with Burdi yet. At the very least, the Sox got the safest player in the draft at #26. Unless the guy blows out his shoulder in the first year after he was drafted he's going to contribute in the MLB and fast. Maybe a couple guys you can say that about each year. The Phillies just got Vince Velasquez, Thomas Eshelman, Brett Oberholtzer and Derek Fisher for Ken Giles after he was great for 100 innings. That's #2-3 starter, a top 150ish prospect, a decent NL arm and a good starting LF on the cusp of the MLB. Burdi probably won't have the ridiculous SSS numbers Giles had, but the scouts will like him more than they did Giles. That deal is out there, but you don't have to do that well in a trade to get a great return on 1 late first round draft pick. The Sox are flush with options on Burdi. -Trade Robertson and Burdi becomes set up. -Trade Jones and Burdi becomes set up. -Trade Burdi in a package for a stud. -Keep Burdi in the bullpen that has been woefully bad for years. -Make Burdi a starter in the minors while they rebuild. There's not many guys that can affect your immediate future at pick #26. The Sox got the bat that will appear in the MLB first in this class, they got the arm that arm that will appear in the MLB first from this class, and they turned around and diversified their risk with a crapshoot in Alec Hansen. He's excelling beyond their highest hopes. You can b**** about the Sox in almost any facet of the organization but when it comes to Burdi, this draft class and their track record on pitching, back off. The early returns and the track record are there. Let things fail before you come at the Sox with pitchforks. This is a rosy scenario and I admit that with a capable, proactive front office, some of these things could happen. But if relievers have that value why don't other teams draft relievers high, or at least put some of their top pitching prospects in the pen and rush them up? The best scenario is: 1)Burdi pitches like Giles, nails down a closer role, so trade him for a haul. That would be the move to make, but....when have you EVER seen this front office make a sell-high trade like that? That kind of move is simply not in the Hahn playbook. Plus it takes some luck on both teams willing to give up that much for a reliever and for Burdi to be that good. As for replacing Jones and then trading Jones, Jones won't bring back the equivalent of a #26 pick, so that would suggest that Burdi does not have #26 value. Re trading D Rob, the time to do that was July, and the front office refused to make a serious move. Oh sure, they can sell him low at some point (and probably will because that's what they do with veterans). I admit that if the front office showed the least bit of competence in putting together a major league roster, I would just express my philosophical disagreement in using high picks for relief pitchers and move on. But these guys have been going for it and can't win more than 76 (not to mention 2 playoff teams in 16 years). Samardizja (instead of Donaldson), Frazier and Shields (with major red flags on the latter 2). Yikes! Maybe the downstream org. has improved. If so, we should see it in the rankings that come out over the winter.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 02:52 PM) But there's one problem with drafting a guy as a reliever and keeping him there. If you draft a guy as a starter and keep him there for several years...if he flops as a starter he could still become a valuable player if you move him to the bullpen. If the White Sox are intending to keep Burdi as a reliever the next 2-3 seasons and he winds up being Daniel Webb, they're not going to be able to convert him into a starter while he's still in this organization because it will take more years than he has options to stretch him out. In other words...you draft a reliever highly, you better be darn sure you're right on him. You better be willing to bet your job on it. That's the explanation. Bravo.

I don't think JR's a bad owner in the sense he's too cheap...he's had a mid-range budget most of the time, which is reasonable. He's had some peculiarities, but I don't see that as a problem. What is a problem is that he's stuck by a front office that simply hasn't gotten the job done for many years.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 12:57 PM) Aren't you the guy who devalued Adam Eaton last year? Didn't devalue him. Wanted to trade him when his value was at a premium. Still do. Buy low, sell high works a lot better than the Williams/Hahn buy high, sell low approach.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 11:20 AM) Burdi isn't a "ceiling" closer. He has three pitches. Then work him as a starter. If he has starter skills, then Williams and Hahn are devaluing him in the pen. Not that devaluation of their own players is anything new out of these 2....

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 10:04 AM) Show me how many #26 overall draft picks contributed more than a decent relief pitcher the last 24 years. Nate Jones is about a half a season away from matching all of their WAR totals combined. But keep thinking they should have drafted a first ballot HOFer there. Besides, relievers values are only going higher. The point is that you don't draft CEILING relief pitchers in the first round. You hope for better...some will work out and others won't. I they don't work out as starters then they can be reliever. Your logic would field a 60 win team...let's use our first round picks for guys were confident can be relievers and utility infielders...whoopee! What the Sox lack are impact players. These players must usually be drafted or signed internationally. Williams and Hahn have done a particularly poor job at org building. And let's be honest. Burdi was drafted to help the pen THIS year; Now that even Williams, Hahn and their Ouiji Board have to realize the Sox aren't in it, it's time to develop him as a starter.

If Williams/Hahn insist on drafting players in the first round to fill relief roles, I have no problem starting the clock. But poor organizational building, including stuff such as this, is why the Sox are where they are organizationally and with the major league team: hopelessly non-competitive when trying to win.

Todd Frazier is a joke. the bad Dunn with a glove.