GreenSox

Another goosegg, but for Great Falls.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 24, 2016 -> 05:01 PM) So the clubhouse manager collects all dues and tips, then redirects 40 percent(!!!!) to himself, and the Sox are jerks for saying that is bulls***? Under the system that they like, the clubhouse manager controls 100% of the dues and tips; he uses it to buy the food and give money to the underlings. Under what they don't like, the clubhouse manager takes 40% for himself, and then the organization takes the 60% to guy food and pay the underlings. I don't know if the are right or wrong, but concentrate on baseball, please.

It was also his 3rd appearance in under 24 hours. One thing that needs to be prioritized over the next week is protecting player value. If you have to use one of these bottom bullpen guys, so be it. Winning this game is not the organizational priority right now. Jones is another one who has been pitched 5/6 days.

This organization is just stunning.

I'd like to trade Sale before Q. Sale's the ace; but he should bring a lot more...a lot to rejuvenate the team. Q is signed for one more year and will help while rebuilding and then after rebuilt. I also like his smooth delivery - looks like he can pitch til he's 35 or 40. A good steady arm while rebuilding. And then too much drama around Sale.

I'm not on Sale's side. He needs to show more maturity. It was an internal matter and mgt should have handled it internally. They don't have to air all the dirty laundry.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 24, 2016 -> 01:58 AM) I'll back a player like Chris Sale over our s*** management team anyday. Yep That said, they need to trade him (and a bunch of others). But they probably should wait until they bring in a professional front office.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Jul 24, 2016 -> 12:04 AM) there are still rumblings that he wasn't sent home and rather left on his own Sox need to grab that and keep up the hard spin that they sent him home. They need to take one for the "maintaining trade value" team on that one.

QUOTE (Green Line @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 11:48 PM) He's a loyal guy? Is that was he was being during Spring Training when he publicly threw his boss under the bus and embaressed the organization? He was loyal to Drake, I suppose. He'd probably feel a lot more loyal if management had assembled a competent team, especially given that he's earning under-market. He might be asking to be traded for all I know...that can lead to tension too. He's certainly not disloyal, but loyalty stuff can be overblown. Dick is right. He's a jerk for doing what he did. But you don't send him home - what is this, high school suspension time?

No he's not justified; but the team stinks, there are swirling trade rumors. Tensions are clearly going to be high. Where is the leadership to stop this from escalating? Any leadership at all from other players, the manager or the general manager to simmer things down; or to proactively address these things? Just another manifestation of organizational dysfunction. And if the beef is with Williams, well that's likely because his underlings who should handle these things, don't. He had to handle the Laroche mess; Ventura couldn't handle his own clubhouse; we know Rick Hahn wasn't going to do anything.

The system went 0-7 about to be 0-8. I realize that's an incomplete reflection of the overall talent. But the horrific nature of these teams (all but Great falls are awful or worse) might say something about system depth. And you really shouldn't do this to your affiliates.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 08:27 PM) They lack impact guys in my opinion They certainly lack impact guys near the majors. As do most teams really. Pirates would be interesting. While his salary would work with their low payroll, they need their prospects to be able to consistently field a winner.

The only elite prospect that the Rangers have is Gallo, and, imo, he isn't that elite. They have to put someone like mazara in there and that really isn't enough.

Strong management wouldn't let it get to this. Drake Laroche never would have had access under real leadership, such that there would have never had to have been cut off. There are a lot of personalities in baseball. Deal with them.

QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 06:12 PM) Seems like this story sets the Sox up for leaking a narrative that Sale forced their hand All of which devalues Sale in the trade market. This organization has the sorriest most "for the benefit of management" centered leadership I've ever seen. Williams needed to go years ago.

QUOTE (SCCWS @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 08:51 AM) If Olney was correct and Sox already turned down a "King's Ransom" for Sale, then he will not be traded regardless of offer. I agree w that strategy. I suspect that a "king's ransom" was never offered; just some FO guy termed a mediocre offer that.

One thing they need to so is send Fulmer down. He clearly doesn't have a full pitching repertoire. No use wasting service time. Rick Hahn rushed up Rodon without all of the pitches; but as usual, if something fails, keep doing it over and over again, instead of trying to recover what you can.

Full value for Sale consists of: 1)Status as top 5 pitcher (Contenders need a really good pitcher, but they don't necessarily need a top 5, so they may not be willing to pay for a top 5). 2)Control for another 3/4 years (3/4 years of control isn't that important now when you're trying to win a WS) 3)Annual contract well below market value (most of the contenders can easily afford a high contract, so they aren't willing to pay full prospect price of a cheaper contract) So much of the value that the White Sox receive in Sale could be under-valued by other teams. Very difficult to get a meeting of the minds, much less in July when sellers rightfully expect to be overpaid. Now Hahn should be able to move other guys, unless he's still howling at the moon

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 09:42 AM) Good luck. The problem is Sale's value to the White Sox far exceeds what other teams woul be willing to give up. I think that's probably true. But as for the million dollar house analogy, Sale is a million dollar house, and they have a few other 1/2 million dollar houses, but drive a yugo and wear suits from Goodwill. That may be a reason to try to move him or others.

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 03:30 AM) In a deal for Sale with the Red Sox we need to at least be getting Betts or JBJ, and their top 3-4 prospects and a b prospect or two The Redsox aren't trading those 2 in July. If the Sox want one, wait until the offseason to fashion a trade. What they should do is ask for their top 5 prospects, and then bargain down from there. Top ML ready prospects is where the surplus lies this time of year...not with major league players. That's how you find players to fill multiple holes. If the Sox got Betts, that would be about it, except, perhaps for a low level prospect or 2. Don't trade him if that's the case.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 11:01 PM) What you do is keep Sale and Q and Abreu and Eaton and Anderson and absolutley trade everybody else and try again. It's almost too late already. We're waiting too long again this year and I don't like it. You'll end up with the same thing. If you want to "Try again" you've got to trade at least one of Q or Eaton (and then any combination of Frazier, Duke, Robertson etc.) , hope to plug 3/4 holes and then give it a go. It would be different because it would be done with younger players, not with these veterans. But you have to move Q or Eaton or Sale to get the surplus needed. The others grab B/B+ prospects. The Padres got an elite prospect for a mediocre Pomerantz. There are deals out there.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 10:45 PM) Team is just being owned by the big 3 in the division. Just a horrible game tonight, as the two young guys (Anderson and Fulmer) couldn't have played worse. And the Angels and Braves......

QUOTE (michelangelosmonkey @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 09:40 PM) Honestly you are welcome to be as pessimistic as you want. But you are wrong about baseball...go look at the 2012 or 2014 Giants WS champs...their second best hitters were Melky and old sox farmhand Michael Morse. Who was the second best hitter on the 2005 Sox WS team? Jermaine Dye. The secret to all those teams is that they had no terrible hitters and great starting pitchers. We are a C and CF away from being that...and Collins and Engel are our two best looking prospects. Again...it may not work. But its not implausible. This path has worked multiple times in the last dozen years. Sure its nice to have a great offense and great pitching but its not necessary. Melky had a .900 OPS in 2012 and Posey was better, but beyond that, you're right except that they had several hitters below .700 OPS. And if you look at their starters, they had 2 great ones and 3 mediocre starters; 2 great reliever and a bunch of average guys. Really hard to see that team as a WS champ looking at stats. In 2014, they had no terrible hitters, but only 1 great starter (but he was really, really great). The Royals didn't have any elite starters last year. But they had an elite pen. I tend to agree - minimize weaknesses. Sox were reasonably close to doing that except at CF and C. But they had no one >.900 OPS and only one guy >.800 OPS. Frazier's done a little better yesterday, but he's not the difference maker many people (not I ) thought he was. But at this point, enough is enough. Front office didn't get it done.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 08:14 PM) One guy did well in AAA, the other guy was awful. Like you said, maybe just put Turner in the bullpen and hope he can throw 98-99. Secondary stuff is horrible for a starter. They should try that. Paid a lot of money to the guy, so just as soon see if they can recover part of the cost. Turner was signed with the expectation that he'd be 5th starter, or thereabouts.

Asking for Correa says that Hahn/Williams are either a) not serious or b) still wed to this nutty notion of a "3 year window" and that they can actually contend this year. Astros are contenders. They will not trade their stud SS in July. Nor should they. And that's not who Hahn should be looking for anyway. You can get a buyer's surplus this year by grabbing elite prospects, not with established major leaguers. Ask for Bregman +...that's where the surplus lies. yes, they are prospects; but the Sox are looking to close multiple holes and build a weak organization.