GreenSox

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 06:39 PM) And only 3 years of control left There you go. An objective reason not to want Profar. But, hey, these 2 could still be thinking "3 year window"......

A lot of hype on Profar, but where's the production? He's been a top prospect just a little too long. Pass.

I don't know who wanted what, but whoever ordered that the rebuilding, that had begun in 2013, be aborted, needs to be fired. And if that was JR, he needs to see reality and/or sel. But when I read that JR had to be "convinced" to pay for Shields, it's clear that he's not the only one with his head in the sand. Now I'm not overly confident in this rebuild. I'm not sure that the front office is properly staffed with the analytics and particularly the eyes for talent, and appropriate numbers that can cover the farm systems of the teams the Sox need to be looking at. Anyone can look at stats, but those can be deceiving, if not irrelevant, for a lot of prospect analysis. There are only 10 days left, and several of these players need to be moved, particularly the bullpen guys. sounds like they are still deciding. As for Preller, he effed up for one off-season then reversed course; and in the case of Kimbrall, he received more than he paid, so he's on a road to redemption. Maybe Hahn can do it.

Lawrie's an okay player, but there's nothing special about him; if some team really wants him, which I doubt, trade him. Saladino could deliver what he delivers, if not more. Jake Peter's looking excellent in AAA. Not really hurting at 2b. Sox need to move on this. There are only a few teams that need each position. The good news is that the Sox have something for everyone. Starters, relievers, infielders, and outfielders. No catchers thought, sorry. But they can't do their usual screwing around, taking days to make decisions...and they have to eat salary. Right now, Robertson, Jones and Duke should be front and center. Even if they don't want to completely tear down, take advantage of bullpen premiums available this time of year and only this time of year. Jones is a big sell high opportunity.

The 3 year window was an invention of Ken Williams based on nothing. Now it seems that they are creating their own reality - rushing players into it.

Some real blowouts last night. Send Burdi to A ball and work on his starting, please. One bright spot seems to be Jake Peter. Seamless transition to AAA. More middle infield depth (time to trade Lawrie).

QUOTE (FT35 @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 09:40 AM) As much as I like the idea of a rebuild--I think you rebuild around your biggest strength--even though your biggest strength carries the biggest trade value. They've been trying to do that, and we've seen the results. So how do you do that? Trade Eaton, Lawrie, Frazier and Robertson? It could work although you'd really have to hit on 2 OFs, one of whom is skilled at getting on base (a long term issue with this team). But, why not? If it doesn't work, complete the sell-off next year. maybe through Jones in there...he should be good for a Vogelbach. Trade our decent prospects for more veterans? That's risky, unlikely to work, and it will kill the future.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 09:14 AM) I'm typically all for moderation, but this is definitely a case where if you trade one, you also trade the other. They are both tremendously valuable assets if your team uses them as an opportunity to save money to spend elsewhere on MLB talent; their value is wasted on a rebuilder. You can get mediocre "veteran presence" elsewhere if the players don't have to be good. Trading both means a complete teardown. I'm not convinced that's necessary. I'm not convinced this roster is set up for on last hurrah in 2017...well they could say it is, but the results will be no different. If you trade Q, you're gambling on Fulmer replacing Q; and if it doesn't work, you still got a fair return for Q. I think the gamble is a better bet than the gamble that this team, as constructed, will contend next year (even with the addition of some bat that Hahn would probably make). Now it would help if Rodon would get it together. I so, they'd have a rotation of a 1, 2 3s, and 2 5s. Not ideal, but not terrible if you have a decent O and play impeccable D. No depth though; they could make another move in offseason to bring a 4/5 in. One step back for two steps forward. You could also do the same thing with Eaton, but he isn't in as high demand this year.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 09:05 AM) It always make me wonder if Hahn would just got some hits instead of misses on his moves things could've been much different. Off the top of my head if they had gone after Fowler, Desmond and Daniel Murphy or even Murphy along with either Fowler or Desmond . Re tooling isn't a bad idea it's just bad when you have so many misses especially misses that ended up being fairly cheap moves the kind the Sox should to be good at since that's all they do. To be fair to Hahn, I don't know that he's really missed on anyone other than Laroche and his $1-$3 million utility players. But he hasn't hit any home runs either. Duke is okay - had one really good year but he's pitching to his ability Robertson is a tad disappointing- not a difference maker but usually good for the save Melky was terrible last year, but this year he's been good....not unlike his prior few up/down seasons Frazier is hitting his homers Lawrie's been better than he was at Oak or Toronto; which isn't to say he's great, but acceptable. Samardzija was disappointing but actually pitched to his career averages Shields is settling down. Laroche, of course, was an abomination on several levels Bonificio, Beckham, Rollins, Turner and several others were bad uses of resources. Particularly Beckham, Rollins and Bonifacio The problem is that those "pretty good" players weren't enough to resurrect a 73 win team to playoff contention. Had he gotten luck and hit a few homers, then perhaps things would be different. But you can't plan on luck. The other problem is that there was an opportunity cost to acquiring those decent veterans. Different players could have been acquired, the prospects could have been used for different players, and some of the prospects are proving to be good plaeyrs, with 6 years of control. The good news is that the vets aren't terrible and they could be peddling for some interesting young players.

Desmond had a bad year last year...he was no cinch to shine. He also switched positions...something that the unflexible Whitesox rarely do. On the other hand Burdi was a reach pick to help this year's pen; not a bad pick as far as reaches go. Hopefully they give up on that idea, settle him down, and put him on a path to a starter.

The better decision is whichever player yields the greatest excess in talent versus his talent as a pitcher. Pushing one or the other on the trading block isn't the way to go. Be open to trading anyone for sufficient overpayment. Not sure whether the FO is up to the challenge that requires flexibility and finesse. I tend to agree that it's unlikely that either of those yields a sufficient overpayment; largely because part of their value, low contract, isn't of great value to most contenders (it might be to, say, the Astros and they might be willing to pay for it in prospects). But Frazier would have some value; maybe even Lawrie, who's an okay player, but the Sox certainly need to be willing to part with him (they could probably get the same thing out of Saladino). Shields (it would be nice if he pitches well tonight) and maybe even Gonzales might be of interest to contenders who need a 5th starter.

QUOTE (WhiteSoxLifer @ Jul 20, 2016 -> 07:01 PM) Its not hahn or Williams who need to face reality it jerry I will blame Jerry to the extent he employs Hahn and Williams. As Blacksox pointed out, Vogelbach is someone you could call-up this year, and for sure at least in September. He's not some prospect 3 years away. He fits with the Win-now mode. But Williams/hahn are just wed to their "proven veteran"theory, no matter how many of the veterans under-perform once they get here (and a lot of that is because they were already in decline).

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Jul 20, 2016 -> 07:19 PM) I don't know if the other stuff is true or not but I believe the part that JR wants to win now and is the reason why the FO keeps pushing for a winner. Has there ever been an 80 year old owner that went full rebuild on their team? Sure he wants to push for a winner. But Hahn and Williams are doing a lousy job of pushing.

Good to see Saldadino get 3 hits...in at bat #s 6, 7, and 8 in July.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 20, 2016 -> 01:33 PM) Saw this on another web site and thought it was interesting. Just wanted to pass it along. The comments/ summery are the original posters: "Stoney was interviewed by Rongey and Bernstein, Tuesday afternoon show on the Score.. He didn't hold back when asked about where he thinks the Sox are, where they are headed, etc 1) he basically said Robin blew it by sending Robertson out there cold, on 9 days rest on the 7/18 game 2) the Sox are kidding themselves if they think they can acquire hitters and position players from their prospects and mid level free agents to compete for a postseason spot while the "core" is intact, over the next couple of years..the offense as it stands, is no where near the caliper you need to realistic think you have a shot at the postseason, this, or next year 3) he said he knows for a fact JR wants to win...badly... And for that to happen, he's going to have to make some "uncomfortable" decisions and do "whatever it takes" 4) He thought it was a slim to none chance JR is selling .. But given JR's age, he might have to think outside of the box, citing the poor record from 2006 to present and consider, FO personnel changes, if need be 5) there's Teams out there with great farms, and near ready prospects, who need pitching. So don't necessarily shop Sale and Quintana, but listen to all offers. Especially if the budget isn't there for the el primo free agents." Mark I think Stone nailed it on all accounts (except for Robertson part - he's the closer; that's his job). Stone for GM!

QUOTE (TheFutureIsNear @ Jul 20, 2016 -> 02:51 PM) If Shields can string together another 2 good starts I think there's a real possibility we could flip him for more than we gave up. Am I the only that would gauge interest on Nate Jones too? I know he's young and controlled, but I can't be the only 1 that sees his elbow going again before too long. I wouldn't just trade him for the sake of getting rid of him, but with the # of contenders looking for backend bullpen help he might be able to net us a pretty good prospect. They need to take advantages of opportunities, including any deals for shields or Jones. It's either like they want to do a mass sell-off (which will always include some giveaways) or start buying veterans. This is a good time for nuance...ears and eyes open, and see what's available to get younger and build the org.

QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Jul 20, 2016 -> 05:44 PM) I really want the sox to not rush all of their hitters. They always do though. Agree and agree

Frazier's the guy who will bring something back. Abreu has Rios numbers right now. I just can't get over getting Vogelbach for a middle reliever. I know he has no real position, but we are a bit lacking at DH. That's org building without even really selling. Hahn and Williams need to be looking around and open for business now. They're slow decision makers as it is, but it's time for them to face reality.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 20, 2016 -> 06:07 PM) A good team sweeps the Mariners...the Sox are not a good team. The bullpen s***s the bed once again. Mark Exactly - Sox outplayed Mariners in all 3 games. Lost 2/3, which is what "not good" teams do.

If you are talking bullpen, Jones is the top trade chit. Saw what the Mariners did today? Made a move. Not really selling- just a half a step back for a good chance at 2 steps forward. Improved their organization - Vogelbach isn't that far away. Kind of like the Eaton trade...Hahn's best score, but one he refuses to repeat.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 06:17 PM) White Sox almost never send money to get better prospects....they traditionally do the opposite. As long as Hahn's GM, they also won't turn around and just dump Shields, especially when the state of starting pitching is so thin in the upper levels of the system. We already have plenty of RH relief candidates for the future and Mariners need Diaz to compete for wild card this season...would trade us prospects instead or no deal with them. Mariners have basically same chance at wild card as Sox do. But their GM is likely more realistic and didn't put himself under the same absurd timetable as Williams/Hahn so I doubt they are buying "this year" players.

Ventura is just relentless with playing Garcia.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan99 @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 05:24 PM) How does McCullers not project as a top of the rotation starter? From what I've read, he doesn't have a great third pitch and his command is iffy at times.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 18, 2016 -> 11:52 AM) Bregman, Springer and Martes That would be more than fair, but the Astros aren't letting Springer go. And I wouldn't either. Altuve-Springer-Correa is the best young trio of hitters in the AL. I don't know if the Astros have enough after Bregman. McCullers doesn't really profile top of the rotation. Reed is hyped. I haven't checked their farm, but at least last year they probably had 10-15 B+ prospects in their org. That's not what you want as a center for Sale, but they would buy other players.

QUOTE (FT35 @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 02:48 PM) I'm not sure a team's market determines whether $46M is spent on a closer. Isn't it more about the competitive state of that team or who is capable on their roster (no matter what their salary is)? For example...Philly is one of the larger markets but they do not have a $46M closer because they aren't that good. Many big market teams do have an expensive closer because their team warrants one. But many large market teams don't--K-Rod is $3.5M in Detroit, Harris is 514K for Houston, Mauer is the minimum in SD. Let's not forget everybody's favorite Cubs--$544K for Rondon. Market may be an independent variable to closer cost. The Sox payroll is fine...higher than several contenders. Rodon, I believe, was a Rule 5 guy. Hahn has picked up a lot of relievers off the scrap heap,, but only Putnam has shown any ability - most have a similar profile - throw hard, no command. There's certainly a lot of luck with a guy like Rodon....but objectivity, flexibility, open-mindedness and, most of all good eyes for talent put you in a place that you will get some luck.