GreenSox

The only elite prospect that the Rangers have is Gallo, and, imo, he isn't that elite. They have to put someone like mazara in there and that really isn't enough.

Strong management wouldn't let it get to this. Drake Laroche never would have had access under real leadership, such that there would have never had to have been cut off. There are a lot of personalities in baseball. Deal with them.

QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 06:12 PM) Seems like this story sets the Sox up for leaking a narrative that Sale forced their hand All of which devalues Sale in the trade market. This organization has the sorriest most "for the benefit of management" centered leadership I've ever seen. Williams needed to go years ago.

QUOTE (SCCWS @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 08:51 AM) If Olney was correct and Sox already turned down a "King's Ransom" for Sale, then he will not be traded regardless of offer. I agree w that strategy. I suspect that a "king's ransom" was never offered; just some FO guy termed a mediocre offer that.

One thing they need to so is send Fulmer down. He clearly doesn't have a full pitching repertoire. No use wasting service time. Rick Hahn rushed up Rodon without all of the pitches; but as usual, if something fails, keep doing it over and over again, instead of trying to recover what you can.

Full value for Sale consists of: 1)Status as top 5 pitcher (Contenders need a really good pitcher, but they don't necessarily need a top 5, so they may not be willing to pay for a top 5). 2)Control for another 3/4 years (3/4 years of control isn't that important now when you're trying to win a WS) 3)Annual contract well below market value (most of the contenders can easily afford a high contract, so they aren't willing to pay full prospect price of a cheaper contract) So much of the value that the White Sox receive in Sale could be under-valued by other teams. Very difficult to get a meeting of the minds, much less in July when sellers rightfully expect to be overpaid. Now Hahn should be able to move other guys, unless he's still howling at the moon

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 09:42 AM) Good luck. The problem is Sale's value to the White Sox far exceeds what other teams woul be willing to give up. I think that's probably true. But as for the million dollar house analogy, Sale is a million dollar house, and they have a few other 1/2 million dollar houses, but drive a yugo and wear suits from Goodwill. That may be a reason to try to move him or others.

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 03:30 AM) In a deal for Sale with the Red Sox we need to at least be getting Betts or JBJ, and their top 3-4 prospects and a b prospect or two The Redsox aren't trading those 2 in July. If the Sox want one, wait until the offseason to fashion a trade. What they should do is ask for their top 5 prospects, and then bargain down from there. Top ML ready prospects is where the surplus lies this time of year...not with major league players. That's how you find players to fill multiple holes. If the Sox got Betts, that would be about it, except, perhaps for a low level prospect or 2. Don't trade him if that's the case.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 11:01 PM) What you do is keep Sale and Q and Abreu and Eaton and Anderson and absolutley trade everybody else and try again. It's almost too late already. We're waiting too long again this year and I don't like it. You'll end up with the same thing. If you want to "Try again" you've got to trade at least one of Q or Eaton (and then any combination of Frazier, Duke, Robertson etc.) , hope to plug 3/4 holes and then give it a go. It would be different because it would be done with younger players, not with these veterans. But you have to move Q or Eaton or Sale to get the surplus needed. The others grab B/B+ prospects. The Padres got an elite prospect for a mediocre Pomerantz. There are deals out there.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 10:45 PM) Team is just being owned by the big 3 in the division. Just a horrible game tonight, as the two young guys (Anderson and Fulmer) couldn't have played worse. And the Angels and Braves......

QUOTE (michelangelosmonkey @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 09:40 PM) Honestly you are welcome to be as pessimistic as you want. But you are wrong about baseball...go look at the 2012 or 2014 Giants WS champs...their second best hitters were Melky and old sox farmhand Michael Morse. Who was the second best hitter on the 2005 Sox WS team? Jermaine Dye. The secret to all those teams is that they had no terrible hitters and great starting pitchers. We are a C and CF away from being that...and Collins and Engel are our two best looking prospects. Again...it may not work. But its not implausible. This path has worked multiple times in the last dozen years. Sure its nice to have a great offense and great pitching but its not necessary. Melky had a .900 OPS in 2012 and Posey was better, but beyond that, you're right except that they had several hitters below .700 OPS. And if you look at their starters, they had 2 great ones and 3 mediocre starters; 2 great reliever and a bunch of average guys. Really hard to see that team as a WS champ looking at stats. In 2014, they had no terrible hitters, but only 1 great starter (but he was really, really great). The Royals didn't have any elite starters last year. But they had an elite pen. I tend to agree - minimize weaknesses. Sox were reasonably close to doing that except at CF and C. But they had no one >.900 OPS and only one guy >.800 OPS. Frazier's done a little better yesterday, but he's not the difference maker many people (not I ) thought he was. But at this point, enough is enough. Front office didn't get it done.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 08:14 PM) One guy did well in AAA, the other guy was awful. Like you said, maybe just put Turner in the bullpen and hope he can throw 98-99. Secondary stuff is horrible for a starter. They should try that. Paid a lot of money to the guy, so just as soon see if they can recover part of the cost. Turner was signed with the expectation that he'd be 5th starter, or thereabouts.

Asking for Correa says that Hahn/Williams are either a) not serious or b) still wed to this nutty notion of a "3 year window" and that they can actually contend this year. Astros are contenders. They will not trade their stud SS in July. Nor should they. And that's not who Hahn should be looking for anyway. You can get a buyer's surplus this year by grabbing elite prospects, not with established major leaguers. Ask for Bregman +...that's where the surplus lies. yes, they are prospects; but the Sox are looking to close multiple holes and build a weak organization.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 06:16 PM) I'd be surprised if the offers are HALF what Kimbrel and Giles went for. Market is flooded with relief options at all levels, and Robertson makes what he's worth on the open market. I'll take 1/2 of the Giles return for Robertson

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 06:39 PM) And only 3 years of control left There you go. An objective reason not to want Profar. But, hey, these 2 could still be thinking "3 year window"......

A lot of hype on Profar, but where's the production? He's been a top prospect just a little too long. Pass.

I don't know who wanted what, but whoever ordered that the rebuilding, that had begun in 2013, be aborted, needs to be fired. And if that was JR, he needs to see reality and/or sel. But when I read that JR had to be "convinced" to pay for Shields, it's clear that he's not the only one with his head in the sand. Now I'm not overly confident in this rebuild. I'm not sure that the front office is properly staffed with the analytics and particularly the eyes for talent, and appropriate numbers that can cover the farm systems of the teams the Sox need to be looking at. Anyone can look at stats, but those can be deceiving, if not irrelevant, for a lot of prospect analysis. There are only 10 days left, and several of these players need to be moved, particularly the bullpen guys. sounds like they are still deciding. As for Preller, he effed up for one off-season then reversed course; and in the case of Kimbrall, he received more than he paid, so he's on a road to redemption. Maybe Hahn can do it.

Lawrie's an okay player, but there's nothing special about him; if some team really wants him, which I doubt, trade him. Saladino could deliver what he delivers, if not more. Jake Peter's looking excellent in AAA. Not really hurting at 2b. Sox need to move on this. There are only a few teams that need each position. The good news is that the Sox have something for everyone. Starters, relievers, infielders, and outfielders. No catchers thought, sorry. But they can't do their usual screwing around, taking days to make decisions...and they have to eat salary. Right now, Robertson, Jones and Duke should be front and center. Even if they don't want to completely tear down, take advantage of bullpen premiums available this time of year and only this time of year. Jones is a big sell high opportunity.

The 3 year window was an invention of Ken Williams based on nothing. Now it seems that they are creating their own reality - rushing players into it.

Some real blowouts last night. Send Burdi to A ball and work on his starting, please. One bright spot seems to be Jake Peter. Seamless transition to AAA. More middle infield depth (time to trade Lawrie).

QUOTE (FT35 @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 09:40 AM) As much as I like the idea of a rebuild--I think you rebuild around your biggest strength--even though your biggest strength carries the biggest trade value. They've been trying to do that, and we've seen the results. So how do you do that? Trade Eaton, Lawrie, Frazier and Robertson? It could work although you'd really have to hit on 2 OFs, one of whom is skilled at getting on base (a long term issue with this team). But, why not? If it doesn't work, complete the sell-off next year. maybe through Jones in there...he should be good for a Vogelbach. Trade our decent prospects for more veterans? That's risky, unlikely to work, and it will kill the future.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 09:14 AM) I'm typically all for moderation, but this is definitely a case where if you trade one, you also trade the other. They are both tremendously valuable assets if your team uses them as an opportunity to save money to spend elsewhere on MLB talent; their value is wasted on a rebuilder. You can get mediocre "veteran presence" elsewhere if the players don't have to be good. Trading both means a complete teardown. I'm not convinced that's necessary. I'm not convinced this roster is set up for on last hurrah in 2017...well they could say it is, but the results will be no different. If you trade Q, you're gambling on Fulmer replacing Q; and if it doesn't work, you still got a fair return for Q. I think the gamble is a better bet than the gamble that this team, as constructed, will contend next year (even with the addition of some bat that Hahn would probably make). Now it would help if Rodon would get it together. I so, they'd have a rotation of a 1, 2 3s, and 2 5s. Not ideal, but not terrible if you have a decent O and play impeccable D. No depth though; they could make another move in offseason to bring a 4/5 in. One step back for two steps forward. You could also do the same thing with Eaton, but he isn't in as high demand this year.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 09:05 AM) It always make me wonder if Hahn would just got some hits instead of misses on his moves things could've been much different. Off the top of my head if they had gone after Fowler, Desmond and Daniel Murphy or even Murphy along with either Fowler or Desmond . Re tooling isn't a bad idea it's just bad when you have so many misses especially misses that ended up being fairly cheap moves the kind the Sox should to be good at since that's all they do. To be fair to Hahn, I don't know that he's really missed on anyone other than Laroche and his $1-$3 million utility players. But he hasn't hit any home runs either. Duke is okay - had one really good year but he's pitching to his ability Robertson is a tad disappointing- not a difference maker but usually good for the save Melky was terrible last year, but this year he's been good....not unlike his prior few up/down seasons Frazier is hitting his homers Lawrie's been better than he was at Oak or Toronto; which isn't to say he's great, but acceptable. Samardzija was disappointing but actually pitched to his career averages Shields is settling down. Laroche, of course, was an abomination on several levels Bonificio, Beckham, Rollins, Turner and several others were bad uses of resources. Particularly Beckham, Rollins and Bonifacio The problem is that those "pretty good" players weren't enough to resurrect a 73 win team to playoff contention. Had he gotten luck and hit a few homers, then perhaps things would be different. But you can't plan on luck. The other problem is that there was an opportunity cost to acquiring those decent veterans. Different players could have been acquired, the prospects could have been used for different players, and some of the prospects are proving to be good plaeyrs, with 6 years of control. The good news is that the vets aren't terrible and they could be peddling for some interesting young players.

Desmond had a bad year last year...he was no cinch to shine. He also switched positions...something that the unflexible Whitesox rarely do. On the other hand Burdi was a reach pick to help this year's pen; not a bad pick as far as reaches go. Hopefully they give up on that idea, settle him down, and put him on a path to a starter.

The better decision is whichever player yields the greatest excess in talent versus his talent as a pitcher. Pushing one or the other on the trading block isn't the way to go. Be open to trading anyone for sufficient overpayment. Not sure whether the FO is up to the challenge that requires flexibility and finesse. I tend to agree that it's unlikely that either of those yields a sufficient overpayment; largely because part of their value, low contract, isn't of great value to most contenders (it might be to, say, the Astros and they might be willing to pay for it in prospects). But Frazier would have some value; maybe even Lawrie, who's an okay player, but the Sox certainly need to be willing to part with him (they could probably get the same thing out of Saladino). Shields (it would be nice if he pitches well tonight) and maybe even Gonzales might be of interest to contenders who need a 5th starter.