GreenSox

Hahn is woefully over his head when signing players and evaluating talent. Maybe he doesn't have the scouting staff, yada yada yada. Yea he signed Sale and Q to good contracts, acquired Abreu and Eaton, but that's where the good news stops. From $10 million to Keppinger to Laroche, to Frazier, the returns have been dismal. He shares the long-time whitesox preference of bad and declining veterans over young players. He speaks like he's intelligent, and I'm sure he is...but he's a poor GM. I'm just praying that he makes zero moves for the rest of the season (although I'm sure he's just lining up 4 or 5 prospects to trade for Jay Bruce).

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 09:37 AM) The amount of bunting is driving everyone insane and rightfully so. Every time I see a sacrifice bunt early in a game, I feel like Billy Beane throwing a chair in Moneyball. Does anyone think it's a Rick Renteria thing? Everyone blames Robin for this and as the manager it's his call. In past seasons though, the White Sox have not been giving away so many outs. IIRC, the Sox have been in the bottom 1/3 of the league in bunts under Ventura. Why this drastic change in philosophy? When things tighten up, Ventura has always tightened up and resorted to more bunting. See last few weeks of 2012

Still no Saladino. Hasn't played in a week. I guess he can't fit him amidst his .220 veterans. Go get 'em Ventura!

I don't know how to post these things right, but here's Hahn talking about the "certain specific risks" they knew about when acquiring Shields.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 04:27 PM) Yes, basically a year after saying "At least we didn't do what the Padres did" we ended up basically doing what the Padres did. Sox are in better shape than the Padres, at least, with Q, EAton, Sale and Abreu.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 03:48 PM) It put pen to paper the general feeling that the sox have made a ton of moves to basically be in a worse place than they would be if they made no moves at all (in regard to depth/salary/production) Yes, that was the conclusion. And that there isn't much that can be done, because do you want the same guy who made those counterproductive moves conducting a fire sale?

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Jun 19, 2016 -> 03:28 PM) Today has to be the day boys! Let's get this party started. Absolutely no way they keep him now. Too late for that. At this point, firing Ventura would be scapegoating. Plenty of culprits to this mess.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 12:02 PM) If you want to do it half assed again, Robertson/Jones/Quintana/Melky If you want to really rebuild Sale/Abreu/Melky/Robertson. Either way probably fine to keep one of Sale/Quintana. Abreu would make sense due to age/cost. We are selling low though. Eaton as well. The rebuild was progressing. They just stopped rebuilding prematurely. In the end, it cost time, money, opportunity cost from the prospects traded...and Trayce Thompson This time they'll probably have to trade Sale. If they want to rebuild, I'd get ahead of this and see what Boston or the Nats would give us for him right now. Probably not enough.

Well I certainly would put Robertson and Frazier up for sale in July. Then see where they stand after the season.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 10:16 AM) Rick Hahn has executed the plan that was given with the funds he's been provided. His job is ridiculously hard. Rick Hahn understands the value of a thriving and valuable system. If he really does, why did he start trading for rents when he had a young core of 4 and a still developing system? His story would be different had he had some patience....maybe Williams wouldn't let him be patient. And, indeed, he had no chance if his orders were to build a winner with the Sox budget and veterans (Sox budget isn't that bad, but it's insufficient to build a team if you insist on veterans). Still, if you consider his acquisitions: FA signings: Keppinger, Laroche, Cabrera, Beckham, Bonifacio, Duke, Robertson, Jackson, Avilia, Navarro, Latos. Can it get much worse than that? Puts a lot into Nate Jones, coming off of injury and approaching 30. Players dumped for virtually nothing, several of whom had productive years after: Thornton, Rios, DeAza Trades (Good): Eaton, A Garcia /Montas Trades (Bad -to say the least): Samardzija, Frazier, Shields Undetermined: Davidson, Lawrie This is more than bad luck or a bad plan.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 08:06 AM) He couldn't spend more time down. That was the caveat to taking and signing him. He would not be on the White Sox otherwise. Do you mean that there was some "wink and nod" agreement with Boras that the Sox would get his major league clock rolling within a year, in return for signing at slot or thereabouts? Everything is a contrivance with this organization. They can't do normal development. And it may not work out so well for Rodon either. And it's beyond time for Cooper to go.

QUOTE (WhiteSoxfan1986 @ Jun 19, 2016 -> 05:16 PM) All comes down to player development. The teams that develop players win. Sox haven't done a good job of that for 10-plus years. So instead they're stuck going dumpster diving for guys like Latos, Shields, etc. Things aren't going to change until development does. That certainly is a problem, but it's better than advertised. There was no reason to dumpster dive for Latos and certainly not Shields. Johnson was an okay 5 (anyone who thought Shields could be more than that should spend their time practicing alchemy) but the pitching coach didn't like him; nor did he like Junior Guerra. Poor roster decisions don't help. Nor does poor talent evaluation. It's near impossible to build a team with veterans when your young core stands at 4. Hahn has since made a number of terrible trades which have exacerbated the problem; but his plan had no chance of success anyway. Hahn may be okay, and he may have been able to build this operation with a sensible plan. But even then, he's got to maneuver through sacred cows like Kenny Williams and Don Cooper....not only does he have to win, he has to keep those 2 happy while doing it.

I see Saladino is on the bench again today. Two hits his last start including a homer and he sits for a week. That's the way to play it White Sox - stay true to the proven veterans

They had it sufficiently blown up 3 years ago, then Hahn doubled the core from 2 to 4; but with a core of 4, Hahn starting trading for rents and other veterans that had reached their peak, as the Sox are want to do. Rebuilding is an art, and Hahn doesn't have it. I'd like to see the scouting reports that excused-away a)Frazier's dismal 2nd half last year and b)Shields' last few starts before acquiring him. And the Sox field staff has little interest or patience for development. Cooper only wants "his guys". Ventura won't platoon, he won't move players around. What needs to be blown up is the management.

They seem to be wrapping this up pretty well, although not sure why paid Call, a clear reach, full slot.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 18, 2016 -> 09:05 PM) Look at some of the recent winners around baseball (even tonight). Junior Guerra was in our system and let go. That's on cooper...barely even let him pitch. What a savvy bunch of talent evaluators. 10 runs allowed v Seattle and these hapless scouts didn't think a thing was wrong...and Hahn believed them. But Shields still has his stuff....Cooper will fix him

The plan is to add veterans that they think are good and try to win. Willing to trade any prospect except two or three. Trouble is the ones they traded last couple years are likely better than any they didn't trade. The other problem is that the veterans they pick are always averageish or worse Then there is a pesky issue of near impossibility to win by loading up on veterans without a young core. Sox had a young core of exactly 4 players which doesn't cut it.

Ventura is a symptom of a stodgy, mediocre front office that lacks creativity, finesse and sorely lacks talent evaluation skills. Not point in moving Ventura if Rick Hahn is still GM; and probably no reason to move Hahn without moving Williams out.

Is it normal to use most of picks 30-40 for they know that they won't sign? I'm sure Hahn will rush Burdi up if it's possible.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 17, 2016 -> 03:09 AM) Shields' has life, he actually has stuff. I hope you're right about that. Because if you are, they should be able to correct his issues, given his long history of solid pitching.

QUOTE (Jose Paniagua @ Jun 17, 2016 -> 09:22 AM) Can anyone summarize for us that dont have Insider access? This is probably going to be fantastic and informative http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/insider/sto...ck-campaign-mlb He didn't blame Cooper. Said he got off to a bad start, starting changing things, which, in the majors, can make things worse when you do it during the season. Had some mechanical issues that he straightened up in offseason. Said Cutter, rather than culprit, is important pitch for him. but he didn't throw it inside enough. Of most interest, perhaps, to the Sox, is that the article also pointed out that the Sox were last in majors in number of fastballs thrown on inner half of plate.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jun 17, 2016 -> 08:57 AM) I get what you are saying. Semien and Trayce are probably both better than people thought. Maybe it speaks to the teams' development being better overall though. The problem with the White Sox system is that they are so weak in that 6-15 range. They don't want to trade their top guys which is understandable. Most teams trade from the back of their top 10 but the White Sox don't have those guys to deal. So they end up dealing guys like Trayce, Montas, and Semien who have had some big league success. I'd trade Trayce Thompson, Micah, and Montas still for Frazier but I get where you are coming from. We just disagree. If the Sox had won, say, 84 games last year, but with a huge 3B void, then I could understand it. But it made no sense to me for a 76 win team (actually worse per run differential) to trade the only CF on the roster, esp considering the org is so short on quality outfielders (Eaton showed last year that he's below par in CF; but the great thing is that he's shown this year that he's above par in RF). They filled one hole to create another. Players blossoming after so-so minor league careers isn't that unusual (Saladino will be the next, imo). The HR total is a surprise, but the Sox knew Semien could hit (they had some MI depth in the minors). They thought Trayce was a fluke, I suppose, but the D alone should have been good enough. The other factor is, I believe, that the Sox farm, while still substandard, is improving. The FO approach to drafting finally got serious 5-6 years ago. Some second tier players are going to push through when you draft well. Sox seem to be caught unaware of their own improvement.

QUOTE (VAfan @ Jun 16, 2016 -> 01:10 PM) There's a pretty hot topic on the site about firing Robin Ventura today. And elsewhere there are the usual rantings about dumping Avisail Garcia. It's pretty easy to support these ideas. The problem is, those kinds of moves will not likely solve the Sox' ills. What is needed, instead, is for the "good" players on the Sox to play much better than they have. Jose Abreu. 9 HR, .422 slugging percentage. 0.6 OWAR. Todd Frazier. .205 BA. 19 HR, but only .464 slugging percentage. Brett Lawrie. .397 slugging percentage, under .700 OPS. Dioner Navarro. Hitting worse than Flowers did last year. Worst framer in baseball. Carlos Rodon. 4.28 ERA, 1.5 WHIP. James Shields. Somehow much worse than Danks or Latos or anyone else in his first two outings. David Robertson. Blew 7-1 9th inning lead against the Royals. Nate Jones. Blew 3 run lead the next night against the Royals. Let's go down the list Abreu, can and will improve Frazier. Possible he could improve, but he had a horrid 2nd half last year, which was utterly ignored/glossed over in the pursuit of his greatness. Basically what you see is what you get with Frazier. Lawrie - Not much room for improvement He's never been a good hitter. He's basically adequate. Rick Hahn preferred "Adequate" to "currently inadequate but with potential", a decided organizational philosophy, so he acquired him. Saladino is a better player than Lawrie (and Avi and Shuck) but the Sox are the Sox and Saladino is on the bench.** Navarro - he can hit better; probably will. He's always sucked as a catcher. Rodon - Rodon was rushed for no reason, other than Williams/Hahn howling at the moon last summer that "we're in it." He should improve, but another few months in Charlotte would have helped. Robertson and JOnes are doing their jobs...they aren't elite and never have been. So out of these, Abreu and Navarro will hit better; Frazier might; and you'll see steady improvement out of Rodon. The .500 record is an accurate reflection of the talent level on this team. **Entering 2015, Charlotte had a crowded infield of ML ready players. And yet Hann and Williams STILL went out and acquired 2 veteran utility infielders. Anyone who can't see the decided bias in this org toward veterans, regardless of skill level, has their head in the sand.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 17, 2016 -> 07:23 AM) Do you see anyone who the White Sox have the pieces to obtain that meets your qualification/standards? Probably no one. That's why you build, and not trade away possible/probable rookies of the year for good, not great players. You make savvy trades...you don't force them like Rick Hahn does. This business of falling in love with every NL hitter who smiles at Hahn/Williams is for the birds. It's what put us in this position and keeps us in the position. BTW, one element of the Sox early on that was credited for the big improvement was the defense. That element, apparently, isn't important anymore.

Breakout or fluke? Padres trying to trade him at what they think is peak value. Smart move especially for a team that wont win for a few years. Sox need an outfielder who also plays plus D anyway if they are going to give up prospects.