GreenSox

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 04:47 PM) He has subbed each of the past 3 games, just like his job description says. Don't fret Yea, 5th infielder, per these eagle-eye White Sox FO talent evaluators. Frazier hasn't had a multi-hit game in a month. Saladino had one his last game.

One With the gift of Laroche savings, they are signing one for big money. No wonder this org gets anywhere.

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 04:27 PM) It's frustrating imo. Ventura isn't part of the solution. That means he is part of the problem. Hahn's moves have generally been mediocre at best but RV's tactical decisions actively hurt the team on a weakly basis. His leadership, while less tangible, appears to be awful as well given how many players under-perform on a yearly basis under him. Of course Ventura is poor strategically and should have been fired at any time over the past 3 years. But it's pointless as long as the front office MO is to acquire more vets, especially the declining variety. No manager can win with that personnel. But if Hahn is aware that his moves have stunk, maybe, just maybe, he'll stop making those type of moves.

QUOTE (y2chae @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 05:52 PM) Also guys like Jones, Frazier, Melky, Lawrie, Robertson, Duke all have value. Maybe you don't get an "exciting" prospect back but some raw high reward type prospects. Agree those guys have value of varying amounts. it's up to the FO to extract it.

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 09:17 AM) Heard Bruce Levine on the radio this morning and he said Hahn has not fired Robin yet because he feels the players are still trying hard. He said the reason they are bad are because of the moves he made have not worked out and it has nothing to do with Robin. it's positive to hear that Hahn has such self-awareness.

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 03:34 PM) Who exactly would you prefer to see him play over? He could play over Lawrie or Frazier from time to time. Neither of those 2 are hitting. Either could use a rest. Not everyday; but sitting him for a week is ridiculous.

There's some good talent on that list, but none of the real talent is close to major league ready.

It might be time to trade Sale. We'll see. But you don't do it until Williams/Hahn/Ventura/Cooper/Bell and the rest hit the road. Certainly don't want Rick Hahn conducting a Sale trade nor the usual suspects evaluating the possible return talent.

Still no Saladino. He's now 5th infielder. He's so out of here in the next Hahn trade for a dogmeat veteran.

Hahn is woefully over his head when signing players and evaluating talent. Maybe he doesn't have the scouting staff, yada yada yada. Yea he signed Sale and Q to good contracts, acquired Abreu and Eaton, but that's where the good news stops. From $10 million to Keppinger to Laroche, to Frazier, the returns have been dismal. He shares the long-time whitesox preference of bad and declining veterans over young players. He speaks like he's intelligent, and I'm sure he is...but he's a poor GM. I'm just praying that he makes zero moves for the rest of the season (although I'm sure he's just lining up 4 or 5 prospects to trade for Jay Bruce).

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 09:37 AM) The amount of bunting is driving everyone insane and rightfully so. Every time I see a sacrifice bunt early in a game, I feel like Billy Beane throwing a chair in Moneyball. Does anyone think it's a Rick Renteria thing? Everyone blames Robin for this and as the manager it's his call. In past seasons though, the White Sox have not been giving away so many outs. IIRC, the Sox have been in the bottom 1/3 of the league in bunts under Ventura. Why this drastic change in philosophy? When things tighten up, Ventura has always tightened up and resorted to more bunting. See last few weeks of 2012

Still no Saladino. Hasn't played in a week. I guess he can't fit him amidst his .220 veterans. Go get 'em Ventura!

I don't know how to post these things right, but here's Hahn talking about the "certain specific risks" they knew about when acquiring Shields.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 04:27 PM) Yes, basically a year after saying "At least we didn't do what the Padres did" we ended up basically doing what the Padres did. Sox are in better shape than the Padres, at least, with Q, EAton, Sale and Abreu.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 03:48 PM) It put pen to paper the general feeling that the sox have made a ton of moves to basically be in a worse place than they would be if they made no moves at all (in regard to depth/salary/production) Yes, that was the conclusion. And that there isn't much that can be done, because do you want the same guy who made those counterproductive moves conducting a fire sale?

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Jun 19, 2016 -> 03:28 PM) Today has to be the day boys! Let's get this party started. Absolutely no way they keep him now. Too late for that. At this point, firing Ventura would be scapegoating. Plenty of culprits to this mess.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 12:02 PM) If you want to do it half assed again, Robertson/Jones/Quintana/Melky If you want to really rebuild Sale/Abreu/Melky/Robertson. Either way probably fine to keep one of Sale/Quintana. Abreu would make sense due to age/cost. We are selling low though. Eaton as well. The rebuild was progressing. They just stopped rebuilding prematurely. In the end, it cost time, money, opportunity cost from the prospects traded...and Trayce Thompson This time they'll probably have to trade Sale. If they want to rebuild, I'd get ahead of this and see what Boston or the Nats would give us for him right now. Probably not enough.

Well I certainly would put Robertson and Frazier up for sale in July. Then see where they stand after the season.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 10:16 AM) Rick Hahn has executed the plan that was given with the funds he's been provided. His job is ridiculously hard. Rick Hahn understands the value of a thriving and valuable system. If he really does, why did he start trading for rents when he had a young core of 4 and a still developing system? His story would be different had he had some patience....maybe Williams wouldn't let him be patient. And, indeed, he had no chance if his orders were to build a winner with the Sox budget and veterans (Sox budget isn't that bad, but it's insufficient to build a team if you insist on veterans). Still, if you consider his acquisitions: FA signings: Keppinger, Laroche, Cabrera, Beckham, Bonifacio, Duke, Robertson, Jackson, Avilia, Navarro, Latos. Can it get much worse than that? Puts a lot into Nate Jones, coming off of injury and approaching 30. Players dumped for virtually nothing, several of whom had productive years after: Thornton, Rios, DeAza Trades (Good): Eaton, A Garcia /Montas Trades (Bad -to say the least): Samardzija, Frazier, Shields Undetermined: Davidson, Lawrie This is more than bad luck or a bad plan.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 08:06 AM) He couldn't spend more time down. That was the caveat to taking and signing him. He would not be on the White Sox otherwise. Do you mean that there was some "wink and nod" agreement with Boras that the Sox would get his major league clock rolling within a year, in return for signing at slot or thereabouts? Everything is a contrivance with this organization. They can't do normal development. And it may not work out so well for Rodon either. And it's beyond time for Cooper to go.

QUOTE (WhiteSoxfan1986 @ Jun 19, 2016 -> 05:16 PM) All comes down to player development. The teams that develop players win. Sox haven't done a good job of that for 10-plus years. So instead they're stuck going dumpster diving for guys like Latos, Shields, etc. Things aren't going to change until development does. That certainly is a problem, but it's better than advertised. There was no reason to dumpster dive for Latos and certainly not Shields. Johnson was an okay 5 (anyone who thought Shields could be more than that should spend their time practicing alchemy) but the pitching coach didn't like him; nor did he like Junior Guerra. Poor roster decisions don't help. Nor does poor talent evaluation. It's near impossible to build a team with veterans when your young core stands at 4. Hahn has since made a number of terrible trades which have exacerbated the problem; but his plan had no chance of success anyway. Hahn may be okay, and he may have been able to build this operation with a sensible plan. But even then, he's got to maneuver through sacred cows like Kenny Williams and Don Cooper....not only does he have to win, he has to keep those 2 happy while doing it.

I see Saladino is on the bench again today. Two hits his last start including a homer and he sits for a week. That's the way to play it White Sox - stay true to the proven veterans

They had it sufficiently blown up 3 years ago, then Hahn doubled the core from 2 to 4; but with a core of 4, Hahn starting trading for rents and other veterans that had reached their peak, as the Sox are want to do. Rebuilding is an art, and Hahn doesn't have it. I'd like to see the scouting reports that excused-away a)Frazier's dismal 2nd half last year and b)Shields' last few starts before acquiring him. And the Sox field staff has little interest or patience for development. Cooper only wants "his guys". Ventura won't platoon, he won't move players around. What needs to be blown up is the management.

They seem to be wrapping this up pretty well, although not sure why paid Call, a clear reach, full slot.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 18, 2016 -> 09:05 PM) Look at some of the recent winners around baseball (even tonight). Junior Guerra was in our system and let go. That's on cooper...barely even let him pitch. What a savvy bunch of talent evaluators. 10 runs allowed v Seattle and these hapless scouts didn't think a thing was wrong...and Hahn believed them. But Shields still has his stuff....Cooper will fix him