GreenSox

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ May 25, 2016 -> 07:53 PM) Just face it. It won't get better until this team is gutted from the top down. Front office is what needs gutting.

Williams' trades over the last decade hurt because they did not help the team. He has consistently used Sox assets poorly. As for Rios, we got a utility infielder for him.....Rios had better numbers at the time of the trade than several guys that people want to trade serious prospects for today.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 27, 2016 -> 08:25 AM) GreenSox, the Twins and Astros are not in the greatest of shape. The Royals and Pirates are getting near that point where their windows are closing more than opening. With the Mets, collecting that many young arms seems to be a little bit of an anomaly or "luck" rather than a systematic approach. And they're still a NY team with NY resources (despite the Wilpons), so not sure we can exactly credit them with "doing things the right way." There is a massive middle ground between the Twins/Astros and what Kenny Williams insists on doing. Every winning team has a solid young core (well it may not be young anymore, but it was when they started winning). The Sox were doing just that and it was WORKING ...but in the Winter of 2014, Williiams/Hahn immediately reverted to Williams' comfort zone and started trading away the young players for veterans, As for the Astros, i would assume that they learned their lesson with their inane trades for Giles and, Carlos "he must be good - he's a Brewer!!!!" Gomez.

QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ May 26, 2016 -> 02:37 PM) Outside of batting Rollins second, RV has done little to contribute to this team's sucktitude over the past couple of weeks. Unless one recognizes Ventura's contribution of ordering players (including the team's best hitter) to make intentional outs via bunting, when behind in the games in late innings. Or letting Rollins bat at all against right handed pitching (addressing that, however, would require Ventura to platoon players, and Ventura doesn't know how to do that). And of course there could be some recognition of generally dubious roster and talent evaluation decisions designed to keep Ventura/Cooper happy and comfy in the dugout.

Well if an approach keeps failing and failing and failing, keep doing ithe same thing over and over until it works. Who cares that teams that actually win do things the opposite way. Go get 'em Kenny Williams!

What the hell...clear out the farm, for some proven veterans, Kenny Williams. 1 playoff appearance in a decade under these philosophies.....the odds are on your side.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ May 26, 2016 -> 08:41 AM) The Sox didn't want to lose him. They tried to sneak him off the 40 man roster. They didn't try very hard, considering some of the stiffs on the 40 man. Cooper didn't want a thing to do with Guerra....but he kept Noesi around for a year and is always willing to pitch Scott Carroll This org. can't even properly evaluate its own players.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ May 11, 2016 -> 09:56 AM) To further the point first round picks since Hahn has been GM: 2015 - Carson Fulmer - Top college pitcher available in the draft, high probability player 2014 - Carlos Rodon - The consensus top college player in the draft, projected most of the year to go 1.1 2013 - Tim Anderson - Considered by some to be a reach, highly athletic player with little baseball experience, junior college player 2012 - Courtney Hawkins - High upside player, compared to Matt Kemp for having power and being able to handle CF 2012 - Keon Barnum - High upside player - huge LH power but falls because he is likely a 1B only So, they have gone out and got the two best college pitchers at their picks and three high ceiling, low floor guys. The first round picks have been much better on paper. Barnum, however, was a massive reach. Yes, they have spent most of their international money, but they have in no sense been "All in" like the Cubs, Redsox, Dodgers etc. And it doesn't cost THAT much money....the Laroche savings would more than cover it. But they are nowhere. And no, I don't see any much out of Williams that he really wants to build an organization, as per the last 2 offseasons. And this year, they could do some savvy reaching IF accompanied by signing them below slot. We'll see if that happens.

You have the "Fire Robin" part right. But really, until they do something about the brainchild of this organization, Kenny Williams and his whopping 2 playoff appearances in 16 seasons despite an above avg payroll, nothing changes.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ May 25, 2016 -> 02:01 PM) They're not going to rebuild with Quintana, Sale, Rodon, Eaton, and Abreu locked up for cheap. It was never a matter of rebuilding ...it was a matter of building and amassing sufficient young talent. All they needed was another offseason or 2. But after a reasonably successful effort in 2013, Williams and Hahn reversed tack and went for the veterans....which is essentially what williams had been doing (and failing at) for years. There is a reason that championship teams are built the way Williams/Hahn want to construct a team. At this point, I would ride it out, while using Charlotte more to try out a few players.

Well Ishikawa is a done deal, as expected.

Loney has a .784 OPS for ElPaso Coats, Hayes, Davidson all exceed that at Charlotte. And then there's the guy I suspect will be the call-up.....Jason Bourgeois, who, like Loney, has the requisite "proven veteran" credential, but with a 1.3 OPS in 17 at bats.

Little surprised he pulled Latos after 83 pitches and didn't try to get an extra inning out of him, considering the DH. I guess you always feel like you're walking on glass with Latos out there. Like to see Saladino in the lineup - 7 game hitting streak.

I would suggest a more open/revolving door with Charlotte for the Sands and Sanchez spots (I like Sanchez - he may be a regular in time - but we already have an extra infielder - need the spot to audition bats). Saladino should play at least equal minutes with Rollins. He's hitting about the same and, dare I suggest, he's young and likely to improve with more experience. Rollins is 37 and didn't hit a lick last year either.

QUOTE (Deadpool @ May 20, 2016 -> 10:31 PM) All of a sudden, that Robin extension talk looks ridiculous. You can survive a bad week, but a bad fortnight is a lot of bad. It always looked ridiculous. But yes it's worse when the team slumps, because that's when he tightens up and plays not to lose, such as bunting his best hitter down when down 2 runs, etc.

Time to break out of the slump. As far as slumps go, this one has been manageable. Lost 4 straight series, but no sweeps. Started with that clown-job in Texas. Let's just hope it is just a slump.

Ventura is an absolute moron, and he gets worse when things tighten up. It takes the mind of Ventura to reason that the way to handle a hitting slump is to order automatic outs. Amazing that KW prioritizes having a trusty mole in the dugout over basic competence.

I would suggest that Ventura and Cooper actually try earning their extension, but I'm sure they're doing the best they can. Ventura is limited in ability and Cooper is obsolete. And there's only so much they can do with this core of 4 + mediocre veterans.

Sox need a starter. The rest of this is silly contrivances that will set the org back years for temporary comfort of some above average veteran in the lineup. I see Junior Guerra struck out 11 today. It certainly would be nice if the Williams/Hahn/Ventura/Cooper could properly evaluate their own prospects. Cooper wanted nothing to do with Guerra, while saddling the Sox with Noesi for a year.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 17, 2016 -> 02:56 PM) If you go back, the Swisher trade was for the most part highly praised in these parts. Hindsight again has shown how smart people who don't actually make trades for a living can be. Of course it was. And if the Sox tomorrow traded any 3 prospects not named Fulmer or Anderson for an above-average hitter, this board would sing the praises. But people who make trades for a living, would never have traded the org's 3 top prospects for Nick Swisher. Nor would they have traded a top 10 prospect in all of baseball to rent Garcia for 2 months. And they certainly wouldn't have then dumped Swisher after 1 year for a utility infielder and 2 organizational minor leaguers. Except for Kenny Williams... If he had stuck with minor trades and savvy siginings, the Sox would be much better off.

8 straight balls, 2 hitters walked, and Ventura orders a bunt. Ventura's limited skillset could not be more clear. Also note that he gets worse when times get tough - see the last week and see the last month of 2012. But to the Sox a happy mole is more important than a skilled manager.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 17, 2016 -> 10:22 AM) First off, if the White Sox even thought about Anderson or Adams or Fulmer for Burns, they would be insane. Amen! QUOTE (BrianAnderson @ May 17, 2016 -> 01:55 PM) The Rays. The A's. Etc. Reddick actually might be a possibility, I just hope the Sox don't do it. I don't want a rental player where you have to give up that much. The rules make it difficult because if the As trade him, they essentially lose a draft choice (they'd assuredly QO him). And what you'd have to pay to compensate the As for that lost draft choice plus his 2 month value wouldn't be worth it. There really can't be a market equilibrium, unless a team overpays, which, of course the Sox....

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ May 14, 2016 -> 07:41 PM) They haven't developed a position player to a MLB starter in about a decade. Sale and Hudson are about the extent of the quality starters they developed. Rodon is still in process and he was well developed when drafted. I doubt they'd have screwed up Schwarber had they chosen him instead. One issue with the hitters, though, is that the Sox draft a lot of raw hitters in the first round.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ May 17, 2016 -> 09:15 AM) Carlos Lee was highway robbery for Podsednik in return. It was the key move for 2005, not for value received (5 WAR for 2 WAR), but because it gave them the salary flexibility to fill 2 more holes. Without AJ and Iguchi, the Sox don't win anything. What's interesting is that the 2005 team was built through small moves and our own young players. Why not replicate that approach? Thome was a 9.8 WAR player from 2006-08. Thomas and Rowand delivered 10.8 WAR in that period (not including Rowand's 2008 as he would have been a FA). And there's Gio (fortunately the Sox got him back in one of Williams' best trades ever, only to dump him).

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ May 17, 2016 -> 09:15 AM) Ritche: Oh no! We lost...Kip Wells? Loaiza: Steal for Kenny. Garcia: Lost nothing of consequence, re-signed him after he was with the team (thus, not a rental) and helped win the World Series. Strong win. For brevity, I won't quote your entire list. Many on your list include young-player for young-player trades that I said the Sox were good at. They should do more of those types of trades. However, 1)Lose-lose is never a "Win" Neither it is a neutral experience when you are trading prospects for the veteran. It is a LOSE. 2)Prospects have value. Trading a top 10 prospect (which Reed was) and a starting catcher for a 2 month rental of an above average pitcher is bad business. Sox could have gotten much more for him. The examples of over-pay abound. You have to consider their value AT the time of trade. Williams traded 3 of the org's top 5 prospects for Swisher; one year later he flips him for 1 utility infielder and a couple of organizational minor leaguers. Edwin Jackson had an ERA in excess of 5 and a high salary - Az was looking for a salary dump; somehow, Williams gave them the org's top 2 pitching prospects for this player. No sense of value. Just 2 examples. 3)The veteran should be the "sure thing." You are trading unknown for known. Williams had an uncanny ability to bring in average veterans. 4)2 playoff appearances in 15 years of this type of trading with an above average payroll.