GreenSox

What the hell...clear out the farm, for some proven veterans, Kenny Williams. 1 playoff appearance in a decade under these philosophies.....the odds are on your side.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ May 26, 2016 -> 08:41 AM) The Sox didn't want to lose him. They tried to sneak him off the 40 man roster. They didn't try very hard, considering some of the stiffs on the 40 man. Cooper didn't want a thing to do with Guerra....but he kept Noesi around for a year and is always willing to pitch Scott Carroll This org. can't even properly evaluate its own players.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ May 11, 2016 -> 09:56 AM) To further the point first round picks since Hahn has been GM: 2015 - Carson Fulmer - Top college pitcher available in the draft, high probability player 2014 - Carlos Rodon - The consensus top college player in the draft, projected most of the year to go 1.1 2013 - Tim Anderson - Considered by some to be a reach, highly athletic player with little baseball experience, junior college player 2012 - Courtney Hawkins - High upside player, compared to Matt Kemp for having power and being able to handle CF 2012 - Keon Barnum - High upside player - huge LH power but falls because he is likely a 1B only So, they have gone out and got the two best college pitchers at their picks and three high ceiling, low floor guys. The first round picks have been much better on paper. Barnum, however, was a massive reach. Yes, they have spent most of their international money, but they have in no sense been "All in" like the Cubs, Redsox, Dodgers etc. And it doesn't cost THAT much money....the Laroche savings would more than cover it. But they are nowhere. And no, I don't see any much out of Williams that he really wants to build an organization, as per the last 2 offseasons. And this year, they could do some savvy reaching IF accompanied by signing them below slot. We'll see if that happens.

You have the "Fire Robin" part right. But really, until they do something about the brainchild of this organization, Kenny Williams and his whopping 2 playoff appearances in 16 seasons despite an above avg payroll, nothing changes.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ May 25, 2016 -> 02:01 PM) They're not going to rebuild with Quintana, Sale, Rodon, Eaton, and Abreu locked up for cheap. It was never a matter of rebuilding ...it was a matter of building and amassing sufficient young talent. All they needed was another offseason or 2. But after a reasonably successful effort in 2013, Williams and Hahn reversed tack and went for the veterans....which is essentially what williams had been doing (and failing at) for years. There is a reason that championship teams are built the way Williams/Hahn want to construct a team. At this point, I would ride it out, while using Charlotte more to try out a few players.

Well Ishikawa is a done deal, as expected.

Loney has a .784 OPS for ElPaso Coats, Hayes, Davidson all exceed that at Charlotte. And then there's the guy I suspect will be the call-up.....Jason Bourgeois, who, like Loney, has the requisite "proven veteran" credential, but with a 1.3 OPS in 17 at bats.

Little surprised he pulled Latos after 83 pitches and didn't try to get an extra inning out of him, considering the DH. I guess you always feel like you're walking on glass with Latos out there. Like to see Saladino in the lineup - 7 game hitting streak.

I would suggest a more open/revolving door with Charlotte for the Sands and Sanchez spots (I like Sanchez - he may be a regular in time - but we already have an extra infielder - need the spot to audition bats). Saladino should play at least equal minutes with Rollins. He's hitting about the same and, dare I suggest, he's young and likely to improve with more experience. Rollins is 37 and didn't hit a lick last year either.

QUOTE (Deadpool @ May 20, 2016 -> 10:31 PM) All of a sudden, that Robin extension talk looks ridiculous. You can survive a bad week, but a bad fortnight is a lot of bad. It always looked ridiculous. But yes it's worse when the team slumps, because that's when he tightens up and plays not to lose, such as bunting his best hitter down when down 2 runs, etc.

Time to break out of the slump. As far as slumps go, this one has been manageable. Lost 4 straight series, but no sweeps. Started with that clown-job in Texas. Let's just hope it is just a slump.

Ventura is an absolute moron, and he gets worse when things tighten up. It takes the mind of Ventura to reason that the way to handle a hitting slump is to order automatic outs. Amazing that KW prioritizes having a trusty mole in the dugout over basic competence.

I would suggest that Ventura and Cooper actually try earning their extension, but I'm sure they're doing the best they can. Ventura is limited in ability and Cooper is obsolete. And there's only so much they can do with this core of 4 + mediocre veterans.

Sox need a starter. The rest of this is silly contrivances that will set the org back years for temporary comfort of some above average veteran in the lineup. I see Junior Guerra struck out 11 today. It certainly would be nice if the Williams/Hahn/Ventura/Cooper could properly evaluate their own prospects. Cooper wanted nothing to do with Guerra, while saddling the Sox with Noesi for a year.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 17, 2016 -> 02:56 PM) If you go back, the Swisher trade was for the most part highly praised in these parts. Hindsight again has shown how smart people who don't actually make trades for a living can be. Of course it was. And if the Sox tomorrow traded any 3 prospects not named Fulmer or Anderson for an above-average hitter, this board would sing the praises. But people who make trades for a living, would never have traded the org's 3 top prospects for Nick Swisher. Nor would they have traded a top 10 prospect in all of baseball to rent Garcia for 2 months. And they certainly wouldn't have then dumped Swisher after 1 year for a utility infielder and 2 organizational minor leaguers. Except for Kenny Williams... If he had stuck with minor trades and savvy siginings, the Sox would be much better off.

8 straight balls, 2 hitters walked, and Ventura orders a bunt. Ventura's limited skillset could not be more clear. Also note that he gets worse when times get tough - see the last week and see the last month of 2012. But to the Sox a happy mole is more important than a skilled manager.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 17, 2016 -> 10:22 AM) First off, if the White Sox even thought about Anderson or Adams or Fulmer for Burns, they would be insane. Amen! QUOTE (BrianAnderson @ May 17, 2016 -> 01:55 PM) The Rays. The A's. Etc. Reddick actually might be a possibility, I just hope the Sox don't do it. I don't want a rental player where you have to give up that much. The rules make it difficult because if the As trade him, they essentially lose a draft choice (they'd assuredly QO him). And what you'd have to pay to compensate the As for that lost draft choice plus his 2 month value wouldn't be worth it. There really can't be a market equilibrium, unless a team overpays, which, of course the Sox....

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ May 14, 2016 -> 07:41 PM) They haven't developed a position player to a MLB starter in about a decade. Sale and Hudson are about the extent of the quality starters they developed. Rodon is still in process and he was well developed when drafted. I doubt they'd have screwed up Schwarber had they chosen him instead. One issue with the hitters, though, is that the Sox draft a lot of raw hitters in the first round.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ May 17, 2016 -> 09:15 AM) Carlos Lee was highway robbery for Podsednik in return. It was the key move for 2005, not for value received (5 WAR for 2 WAR), but because it gave them the salary flexibility to fill 2 more holes. Without AJ and Iguchi, the Sox don't win anything. What's interesting is that the 2005 team was built through small moves and our own young players. Why not replicate that approach? Thome was a 9.8 WAR player from 2006-08. Thomas and Rowand delivered 10.8 WAR in that period (not including Rowand's 2008 as he would have been a FA). And there's Gio (fortunately the Sox got him back in one of Williams' best trades ever, only to dump him).

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ May 17, 2016 -> 09:15 AM) Ritche: Oh no! We lost...Kip Wells? Loaiza: Steal for Kenny. Garcia: Lost nothing of consequence, re-signed him after he was with the team (thus, not a rental) and helped win the World Series. Strong win. For brevity, I won't quote your entire list. Many on your list include young-player for young-player trades that I said the Sox were good at. They should do more of those types of trades. However, 1)Lose-lose is never a "Win" Neither it is a neutral experience when you are trading prospects for the veteran. It is a LOSE. 2)Prospects have value. Trading a top 10 prospect (which Reed was) and a starting catcher for a 2 month rental of an above average pitcher is bad business. Sox could have gotten much more for him. The examples of over-pay abound. You have to consider their value AT the time of trade. Williams traded 3 of the org's top 5 prospects for Swisher; one year later he flips him for 1 utility infielder and a couple of organizational minor leaguers. Edwin Jackson had an ERA in excess of 5 and a high salary - Az was looking for a salary dump; somehow, Williams gave them the org's top 2 pitching prospects for this player. No sense of value. Just 2 examples. 3)The veteran should be the "sure thing." You are trading unknown for known. Williams had an uncanny ability to bring in average veterans. 4)2 playoff appearances in 15 years of this type of trading with an above average payroll.

Lots of front-office apologists who refuse to look at facts, I see. Here's another fact: TWO playoff appearances in 16 years under this front office. The list is long: Ritchie, Garcia (1/2 year rent), Swisher, Vasquez, Edwin Jackson, Samardzija, Peavy and Frazier. Only Thome could be considered a positive, but if you factor in the fact that jettisoning Frank was part of that move, it is closer to neutral. Bourgeois is 34, has an OPS of .627 in .708 major league at bats. To use him for anything other than Charlotte filler would be beyond belief......except that this org. loves its veterans. Heck Leury is 25 and has an OPS of .823 in Charlotte this year.

What's stunning, well not that stunning, is the patience and optimism about OTHER team's young players who can't hit a lick, compared to the patience, optimism of SOX young players who haven't hit yet. By the LARGE consensus hereon, Trayce Thompson was nothing but a fourth outfielder. And that's even though he absolutely raked in September. The consensus has already ruled that Saladino and Sanchez are utility infielders. Bradley is a nice example of someone who has talent, didn't play well in his first ML attempts, but was still good. Sure they could have dumped him. But to acquire that player now, would require a top 50 prospect and a couple of other Bs Inciarte is a slap hitter with no power who got lucky last year that his slaps found holes...the stats revealed that. Could he develop into something? Perhaps.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ May 17, 2016 -> 05:05 AM) Well that's just not accurate. It's Extremely accurate in trades where Sox acquire an accomplished player. It's been true since Kenny Williams started making trades and Hahn has continued the tradition of vastly overpaying, if not amped it up a notch. Caufield's list is instructive because it shows the Sox are pretty good at making trades for players that haven't yet accomplished a lot in the majors. Why the Sox don't stick to those I have no idea except that the last 2 field staffs have had a general distaste for developing young players.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 14, 2016 -> 10:00 PM) Pitching in San Diego in meaningless games in one of the friendliest parks for pitchers isn't the same as pitching in the American League. (The likes of Clayton Richard and Eric Stults were made to look good out there). Look at Shields' 2014 stats with the Royals, particularly the 2nd half of the year and the post-season. Giving away Anderson and Fulmer AND paying his terrible contract would be insane. Now, if they were willing to pay for half of it or 40% and take two prospects (maybe Adams would be the one dealt, along with Hawkins), it might at least be plausible. There is no way that Shields' price is anything more than a single C prospect; anyone who pays more than that is insane. This team has holes. They may win anyway, they may not. Cleaning out the farm for the other team's veteran du jour won't change that. It be fixed in the future with an influx of YOUNG talent.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 14, 2016 -> 10:00 PM) Pitching in San Diego in meaningless games in one of the friendliest parks for pitchers isn't the same as pitching in the American League. (The likes of Clayton Richard and Eric Stults were made to look good out there). Look at Shields' 2014 stats with the Royals, particularly the 2nd half of the year and the post-season. Giving away Anderson and Fulmer AND paying his terrible contract would be insane. Now, if they were willing to pay for half of it or 40% and take two prospects (maybe Adams would be the one dealt, along with Hawkins), it might at least be plausible. There is no way that Shields' price is anything more than a single C prospect; anyone who pays more than that is insane. This team has holes. They may win anyway, they may not. Cleaning out the farm for the other team's veteran du jour won't change that. It may be fixed in the future with an influx of YOUNG talent.