GreenSox

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 05:08 PM) Everyone is exhausted talking about Ventura...and this whole Shields debacle (so far) has almost forced everyone to start looking up higher on the food chain. JR is the only one who knows who was the biggest advocate and pushed the hardest for Shields. Maybe KW, maybe Hahn...I doubt it was 50/50 an equal presentation from both execs when they made that pitch to JR. Well we know what KW's strategy was: this. And what we're seeing from Hahn since 2014 differs very little from the Williams approach. Now Hahn's first year differed significantly when he doubled the young core, but that came to an abrupt halt when he traded 4 prospects off of a mighty 73 win team to rent Samardjija. . Since 2014, Hahn has been relentless in his pursuit of veterans. Hahn's early work has now been subsumed in the subsequent 3 years of a GM clownshow. Both need to go.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 22, 2016 -> 07:18 AM) Especially with their offensive struggles the first two games and then Q tonight....they'll be like sharks sensing blood in the water across an entire ocean and going into predator/cruise control attack mode. Erik Johnson today, Shields goes tomorrow. "Almost all of his hits were with two strikes," Padres manager Andy Green said. "I think it's a little bit of a function of he's working predominantly one side of the plate." Johnson and Green saw some progress. "Compared to my last outing, I'm definitely taking more than a few steps forward," Johnson said. "I had a feel for all four of my pitches. I used them well, just a few balls left the yard. "For me, it's just putting myself in situations where I've got to stay away from that." Read more here: http://www.sunherald.com/sports/article843...l#storylink=cpy Well, we'll see. Cooper wanted nothing to do with Johnson. He's pleased with Shields' side sessions. We'll see which pitcher under which coach gets better. We'll see if Cooper still has the magic (that is continuously touted but hasn't been apparent in a decade). Now Cooper didn't make the trade - that was Rick Hahn. So Shields needs to be a lot better for it to make sense and to be a rare positive in the Hahn ledger.

Although they'll never do it with they need to do is cut down the regular season , and add some legitimate playoffs series instead of the bogus one game wild card games. 5 game playoffs are pretty ridiculous as well. Actually they could do it. Expand the roster the 28 and schedule some twinbills. Sox could go on one of those "false hope" runs. They don't play the Tigers Royals or Indians until the end of next month.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 04:58 PM) I was just thinking about why Hahn gets SO MUCH credit for the Eaton, Sale, Q and Abreu (this isn't as good, starting next year) contracts. Why do we have the assumption that nobody else could have done the same? That you have to have a law or business degree to pull it off? Then I thought about the Indians and looked at their payroll. Still well under $100 million, despite the Swisher/Bourn/C.Johnson debacles. Carlos Santana 5 years/$21 million 2017 option Michael Brantley 4 years/$25 million 2018 option Jason Kipnis 6 years/$52.5 million 2020 option Corey Kluber 5 years/$38.5 million 2020/21 options Carlos Carrasco 4 years/$22 million 2019/20 options Yan Gomes 6 years/$23 million 2020/21 options Josh Tomlin 2 years/$5.5 million 2018 option That's not even considering future extensions for Lindor, Jose Ramirez, Salazar (top five pitcher in the AL now) and possibly Trevor Bauer, if he's not traded. That's what is called a young core, and all locked up under favorable contract conditions. You can quibble about Brantley's injury history, and Gomes also hasn't gotten back to his 2014 form, but WOW. It's that number of players that stands out. Cleveland has a core of 8-10. Rick Hahn started trading for short-term and otherwise mediocre veterans when he had a core of 4. That shows how overmatched Hahn is as a major league GM (and I'm sure he's hand-in-hand with Williams in refusing to build a core).

QUOTE (CWSpalehoseCWS @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 05:24 PM) That leaves you without a viable infielder on the bench. If the Sox would stop carrying 5 OF's I'd agree that would be a logical thing to pull. Well, there's no reason Lawrie can't sit once or twice a week; he's the extra infielder when he does. Neither Coats nor Shuck can hit and neither is particularly good defensively. Heck bring up Leury...he's hitting well in AAA, and Coats (.294 OPS)/Schuck (.496 OPS) are hitting at about what Leury hit in his ML stint. Leury can play IF and OF. If Rick Hahn GMd the Giants, he'd have jettisoned Brandon Crawford years ago in favor of a proven .690 OPS veteran infielder.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 04:47 PM) He has subbed each of the past 3 games, just like his job description says. Don't fret Yea, 5th infielder, per these eagle-eye White Sox FO talent evaluators. Frazier hasn't had a multi-hit game in a month. Saladino had one his last game.

One With the gift of Laroche savings, they are signing one for big money. No wonder this org gets anywhere.

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 04:27 PM) It's frustrating imo. Ventura isn't part of the solution. That means he is part of the problem. Hahn's moves have generally been mediocre at best but RV's tactical decisions actively hurt the team on a weakly basis. His leadership, while less tangible, appears to be awful as well given how many players under-perform on a yearly basis under him. Of course Ventura is poor strategically and should have been fired at any time over the past 3 years. But it's pointless as long as the front office MO is to acquire more vets, especially the declining variety. No manager can win with that personnel. But if Hahn is aware that his moves have stunk, maybe, just maybe, he'll stop making those type of moves.

QUOTE (y2chae @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 05:52 PM) Also guys like Jones, Frazier, Melky, Lawrie, Robertson, Duke all have value. Maybe you don't get an "exciting" prospect back but some raw high reward type prospects. Agree those guys have value of varying amounts. it's up to the FO to extract it.

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 09:17 AM) Heard Bruce Levine on the radio this morning and he said Hahn has not fired Robin yet because he feels the players are still trying hard. He said the reason they are bad are because of the moves he made have not worked out and it has nothing to do with Robin. it's positive to hear that Hahn has such self-awareness.

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 03:34 PM) Who exactly would you prefer to see him play over? He could play over Lawrie or Frazier from time to time. Neither of those 2 are hitting. Either could use a rest. Not everyday; but sitting him for a week is ridiculous.

There's some good talent on that list, but none of the real talent is close to major league ready.

It might be time to trade Sale. We'll see. But you don't do it until Williams/Hahn/Ventura/Cooper/Bell and the rest hit the road. Certainly don't want Rick Hahn conducting a Sale trade nor the usual suspects evaluating the possible return talent.

Still no Saladino. He's now 5th infielder. He's so out of here in the next Hahn trade for a dogmeat veteran.

Hahn is woefully over his head when signing players and evaluating talent. Maybe he doesn't have the scouting staff, yada yada yada. Yea he signed Sale and Q to good contracts, acquired Abreu and Eaton, but that's where the good news stops. From $10 million to Keppinger to Laroche, to Frazier, the returns have been dismal. He shares the long-time whitesox preference of bad and declining veterans over young players. He speaks like he's intelligent, and I'm sure he is...but he's a poor GM. I'm just praying that he makes zero moves for the rest of the season (although I'm sure he's just lining up 4 or 5 prospects to trade for Jay Bruce).

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 09:37 AM) The amount of bunting is driving everyone insane and rightfully so. Every time I see a sacrifice bunt early in a game, I feel like Billy Beane throwing a chair in Moneyball. Does anyone think it's a Rick Renteria thing? Everyone blames Robin for this and as the manager it's his call. In past seasons though, the White Sox have not been giving away so many outs. IIRC, the Sox have been in the bottom 1/3 of the league in bunts under Ventura. Why this drastic change in philosophy? When things tighten up, Ventura has always tightened up and resorted to more bunting. See last few weeks of 2012

Still no Saladino. Hasn't played in a week. I guess he can't fit him amidst his .220 veterans. Go get 'em Ventura!

I don't know how to post these things right, but here's Hahn talking about the "certain specific risks" they knew about when acquiring Shields.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 04:27 PM) Yes, basically a year after saying "At least we didn't do what the Padres did" we ended up basically doing what the Padres did. Sox are in better shape than the Padres, at least, with Q, EAton, Sale and Abreu.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 03:48 PM) It put pen to paper the general feeling that the sox have made a ton of moves to basically be in a worse place than they would be if they made no moves at all (in regard to depth/salary/production) Yes, that was the conclusion. And that there isn't much that can be done, because do you want the same guy who made those counterproductive moves conducting a fire sale?

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Jun 19, 2016 -> 03:28 PM) Today has to be the day boys! Let's get this party started. Absolutely no way they keep him now. Too late for that. At this point, firing Ventura would be scapegoating. Plenty of culprits to this mess.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 12:02 PM) If you want to do it half assed again, Robertson/Jones/Quintana/Melky If you want to really rebuild Sale/Abreu/Melky/Robertson. Either way probably fine to keep one of Sale/Quintana. Abreu would make sense due to age/cost. We are selling low though. Eaton as well. The rebuild was progressing. They just stopped rebuilding prematurely. In the end, it cost time, money, opportunity cost from the prospects traded...and Trayce Thompson This time they'll probably have to trade Sale. If they want to rebuild, I'd get ahead of this and see what Boston or the Nats would give us for him right now. Probably not enough.

Well I certainly would put Robertson and Frazier up for sale in July. Then see where they stand after the season.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 10:16 AM) Rick Hahn has executed the plan that was given with the funds he's been provided. His job is ridiculously hard. Rick Hahn understands the value of a thriving and valuable system. If he really does, why did he start trading for rents when he had a young core of 4 and a still developing system? His story would be different had he had some patience....maybe Williams wouldn't let him be patient. And, indeed, he had no chance if his orders were to build a winner with the Sox budget and veterans (Sox budget isn't that bad, but it's insufficient to build a team if you insist on veterans). Still, if you consider his acquisitions: FA signings: Keppinger, Laroche, Cabrera, Beckham, Bonifacio, Duke, Robertson, Jackson, Avilia, Navarro, Latos. Can it get much worse than that? Puts a lot into Nate Jones, coming off of injury and approaching 30. Players dumped for virtually nothing, several of whom had productive years after: Thornton, Rios, DeAza Trades (Good): Eaton, A Garcia /Montas Trades (Bad -to say the least): Samardzija, Frazier, Shields Undetermined: Davidson, Lawrie This is more than bad luck or a bad plan.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 08:06 AM) He couldn't spend more time down. That was the caveat to taking and signing him. He would not be on the White Sox otherwise. Do you mean that there was some "wink and nod" agreement with Boras that the Sox would get his major league clock rolling within a year, in return for signing at slot or thereabouts? Everything is a contrivance with this organization. They can't do normal development. And it may not work out so well for Rodon either. And it's beyond time for Cooper to go.