GreenSox

Why aren't the Reds "going for it?" They had Cueto, Chapman and Leake. They had the great Bruce (see earlier threads fawning on this guy), Votto and the speedy Hamilton and the elite, the super duper, the best of the best Todd Frazier. They had Marlon Byrd and Brandon Phillips, both of whom outhit Melky. Why did they suck so badly with all of this elite talent? Seems like 1 or 2 pitchers would have put them over the top.

QUOTE (BigHurt3515 @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 10:24 PM) I'm not sure why people are so down on Melky. I think he is a piece that we should keep. His offense is better then what Thompson or LaRoche will offer Based on what? His lofty .709 OPS? And Trayce and his .850 OPS and impeccable D is a 4th OF, while the declining Melky and his .709 OPS and clownish defense and play is a keeper. I realize Tracy's OPS isn't sustainable, but I'll take a chance that he can at least equal Melky's .709. I have no doubt that at least 1 of Trayce, Erik J or Micah J get traded for a decliner or for some career year that Williams is fawning over. It wouldn't surprise me if they trade all 3. I'm okay with signing Upton, IF they clear out the riff raff. And if it's an alternative to trading for another Williams rent-a-career-year, I'm all over it.

I'm okay with Upton if they get rid of Melky and trade Eaton. Avi-Trayce-Upton is a much better OF. Much rather sign Upton than trade young players to rent an overrated fraud like Frazier.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 08:25 PM) Yet you want no part of Todd Frazier. Todd Frazier is not a star. Not even close. Look at his stats.

The Sox aren't in a bad position. If they would just give it a year or 2 and acquire talent when it's available. But they refuse to do that. Absolutely refuse. They insist on forcing - sign decliners, trade for rents, don't let young talent develop. The one year they acquired young talent they improved 10 games. Kenny Williams has to have his "proven veterans", put a paper thin team together than needs EVERYTHING to go right to contend, and when one of Williams' decliners predictably declines, they have to start back at ground zero.

Oh boy, let's see who we can trade for a 2 year rent .660 OPS with stilted home/away splits. The Sox will still suck, but we can "Dream" until mid April, when reality will set in. And we'll have a participant on home-run derby!

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 09:21 PM) Exactly. I kinda just want to stay away from this. Yet I don't know what else they should do since I don't think they should rebuild (...yet). Just build. Kenny Williams (and this has Williams written all over it) is ridiculously obsolete. This stuff doesn't work. But the Sox do it year after year after year. Where does Trayce fit into this? They don't even have the patience to find out if 2015 was at least somewhat real? He could decline .100 OPS points and still really help the team.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 09:17 PM) Would Upton, trading for Lawrie, re-signing Alexei be enough? It feels like we would still need to make one more addition to put us over the top. To contend? Not even close Alexei- good lord.

QUOTE (TheFutureIsNear @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 09:00 PM) Sign Upton Trade Avi + a decent prospect for Lawrie Bring back Alexei last minute Sound about right? Lawrie is not worth a decent prospect.

Stay far away from 2 year rents with .660 2nd half OPS'. Will do nothing but set the Sox back. Enough damage was done last year with clowning like this.

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 04:46 PM) I sorted all qualifying MLB'ers by BB/K. Lawrie was 4th worst. I think he is the exact opposite of what this team needs. He's not a good hitter, that's for sure. And Beane likes the guys who take a walk. You just can't give up much for him. QUOTE (Vance Law @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 04:27 PM) The rotation was full? They knew by the end of the season they'd have room for him both with rosters expanding and with not wanting to push Rodon's innings total? Certainly plausible. I hope that was the reason.

QUOTE (Vance Law @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 03:57 PM) All of the mechanical changes Johnson made which led to, not only International League pitcher of the year results, but also the large measurable increase in velocity detailed here. http://www.si.com/mlb/2015/11/24/erik-john...-pitcher-health Very promising. Had a great year. The Sox really waited to bring him up for some reason. Wouldn't surprise me if they trade him, and likely below value.

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 02:48 PM) I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Saladino had a 61 wRC+ and Sanchez a 60 wRC+. That is horrible. Yet Saladino was worth 1.3 bWAR and Sanchez was worth 0.7 bWAR because of their defense. Heyward is a pretty good hitter, he has a 118 wRC+ for his career. That along with his elite defense makes him worth an elite contract. Saying that if his defense regresses he won't be good is like saying if Miguel Cabrera's offense regresses then he won't be much of a player. Except that his defense assuredly will regress with age. Plus, just my opinion that that's an over-weight on defensive value, esp. as the Sox are trying to build a groundball staff. Not that OF defense isn't important, but it's nothing that the Sox are really in a position to pay a premium for. They can get competence for far less.

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 01:59 PM) I would hope the Sox could get some kind of a prospect with Castro but I wouldn't really complain and I've been very much against the idea of Castro in the past. Castro for Robertson would give the Sox a bit more money to play with while filling the SS void. It's not by any means my first choice but a trade I wouldn't be pissed about either. Not much money; and if he repeats what he did 2 of the last 3 years, Castro fills no void. Robertson had a 1.8 WAR and Castro a .8. Not a good deal.

Excellent posts, Balta. And it wouldn't surprise me if they repeat the foolishness of the winter of 2014.

QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 11:38 AM) I feel like Hayward is going to have a career like Adrian Beltre. Some great offensive years, some .700 -.720 ops years, but always elite defense. Unsure if that's worth 200 million. Agree and it's not. What would Upton cost?

QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 10:59 AM) I think it's possible that the Sox still go after Heyward anyway. The problem with Heyward is that he's not a great hitter. That's a lot of money for excellent defense and solid, but not great, hitting.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 09:51 AM) Really seems like they don't want to go with Erik Johnson. He's not a Cooper guy. That usually means you hit the road.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 08:52 AM) I guess it depends on your definition of close but Seattle missed the playoffs by 1 game in 2014. You're right they did. But, in general, they haven't contended much. But you could use them as the anti-trade example too. They traded Fister and received Caspar the Friendly Ghost.

QUOTE (LDF @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 05:37 AM) but not a front end sp a true #1 sp. That's how we got Sale. Through the draft. Rodon may turn out to be one as well. KC won a WS with nothing close to an Ace. But they had a pen, depth, and no holes. Seattle has had an ace for years, and hasn't come close to the playoffs. As for Santana, yes the Twins prospects didn't turn out to be much; of course Santana declined the second he went to NY as well. He was still good with the Mets for a while, but not an ace.

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 07:35 PM) In all fairness to Hahn, it was rumored that Hahn wanted to deal Samardzija to the Jays in late June but KW wanted to wait and see if the team would come around. I do agree that the FO as a whole blew it so all we can do now is take that pick and hopefully draft a great prospect with it. And that's what needs to stop. Kenny Williams has been howling at the moon for the last 6 years, thinking this team is a contender. A ten game winning streak is just around the corner. Hahn needs to be set free to do his job.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 09:34 PM) You keep Sale until it's time for the Red Sox to sign him to a seven year 350 million dollar deal. That's where this will be heading for guys like Sale in a couple years. 50 mill a year will be the going rate. It's only escalating. Keep him til he leaves. Minor leaguers blow. That's why you draft pitcher, like the Sox do. So you can groom replacements. Draft enough of them, you'll get the replacements. Speaking of blowing, that's what this team does for the foreseeable future, as constructed.

QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 12:01 AM) Sox aren't getting Seager, Pederson, Urias and DeLeon for Sale. You have to be smoking serious rocks if you think that. Your best bet is to get two of those guys and maybe Puig while also taking on Carl Crawford's contract. I would do that in a heartbeat. 2 + Puig + Crawford.

QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 04:06 PM) Sale's contract is maybe worth another top 5 prospect. You guys aren't even asking for that. You guys are asking for Seager, Pederson, Urias at minimum. There's no precedent for that. Hell, Atlanta is only asking for Pollock for Miller. Shelby Miller is a #3. I agree that Pollack for Miller is a substantial overpay by Arizona. Sale is an ace, signed for 4 more years cheap. Yes, I think a trade of Sale for full value would help the team a lot. No reason to trade him for less than that. I would say two top 10s and two others.

I would think that a team on a limited payroll would be interested and would be willing to pay the premium in players that the low salaries of our pitchers warrant. Someone like Houston. A team like Boston would/should pay the talent in return for talent, but they wouldn't get as much premium out of the low salary. But you don't trade for less than the value of the player + contract.