GreenSox

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 04:42 PM) They do develop pitchers, which is what keeps them in business. There will always be a market for pitchers. Sale but he was a first round draft choice. Rodon was "can't miss".... And.....? A few here and there, most of whom they traded. Maybe you can count Q but he pitched like 50 minor league innings. I'm not convinced that they're so much better at pitchers than hitters, especially recently. the top prospect is a hitter. Trayce was a hitter. Semien can hit. Saladino, imo, will hit pretty well for an IF. Who's #2 in Charlotte behind Anderson? Delmonico? Hitter. I think they're getting okay with hitters. But it takes some time.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 04:33 PM) Since 2000, the KW reign only 2 teams have more World Series wins than the White Sox. Boston has 3 and SF 2. There are 7 others that have won 1 like the White sox. So in this timeframe they are better than 20 teams and equal to 7. Now you can say that it is time to move on and change things, which I wouldn't disagree with. However, you can't say that under KW they have done nothing and he wasn't an effective GM. he has a ring; I never said he never was (although I think others were better). I said he isn't now. And it's not because of lack of skills. His methods will work if you have a strong foundation (Dombrowski does what he does; so does Brian Sabean, although Sabean has toned it down a lot under their GM). But those teams have much stronger org. foundations that I believe KW has put insufficient attention into rebuilding. Brandon Crawford was never super in the minors; he certainly wasn't super in the majors for 3 years...but they stuck with him. Around here, he'd have been put in the utility infielder dustbin. I thought they were making progress in 2013, and they stopped.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 04:21 PM) That should show you how much a "stocked farm system" promises you as a MLB team. Or how the stocked farm was managed - and whatever it was, it wasn't restocked well. He inherited a winning MLB team as well. Look, prove me wrong. Load up with proven veterans and actually win. They just keep doing the same things that haven't worked. And they don't do the things that seem to work at the winning organizations. So yes, when they keep doing the same thing and getting the same inadequate results, I'm looking for a change in course.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 04:11 PM) Just because you brought it up. How many World Series wins and playoff appearances did the White Sox have under his predecessors? None, but 2 playoffs in 16 seasons after inheriting a stocked farm and MLB team with at least a league average salary structure are lackluster results. QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 04:02 PM) Honest question - its obvious you have so much hatred for the White Sox - why don't you just give up caring, or find another team to cheer on? Again, honest question - no sport/hobby should make you as miserable as you appear to be towards the Sox, so why spend so much time loathing over it? I disagree with how 2 employees - Williams and Hahn - manage the White Sox. They are assuredly NOT the White Sox

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 03:20 PM) This is the team you root for though. This is what they do. They are going for it. They are going for it next year. They aren't rebuilding. I wish they would spend $25-$30 million in the international market but they just don't do it. How did they deplete their system with this move? I'd argue that they could trade Shields in 2 months and acquire more than they gave up. That's what the team under Kenny Williams does. That's not what happened under his 2 predecessors. Yes, they could flip Shields for more than they paid if he pitches better than he has. But, to paraphrase, that's not what they do.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 03:43 PM) The reality is that the middle of March was way too late to do this for 2016. Those deals are being made a year in advance, if not more, for the kind of players you are wanted to make those deals with. Teams are already working on the class of 2017, not 2016, except for a very few cases.True, but they really should have been in anyway, considering the absence of heavy hitters this year. And in the past couple of years, they have signed a top 30 guy or 2 each year.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 03:14 PM) There's also the fact that people might think the Shields money ( or any money) might be better spent on the international youngsters while many of the teams who went spend crazy are punished for doing so. Good teams stockpile young talent and have thrown stupid crazy money into the kids from the DR and young Cubans. The Sox do nothing but the bare minimum in that area. But yea go ahead keep looking at the trade in a vacuum for its value for a declining innings eater in a desperate attempt to make the playoffs for a year or 2. Right on the money I didn't realize I had such an ally! Sox should have spent the Laroche savings on the international market. They are nowhere to be found.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 02:45 PM) I don't know how you misunderstood my intent in making my comments to you. I am actually supporting you . You certainly did. Boy did I mess that up. I didn't really read what you were saying - just saw the names - and completely misinterpreted your point. And not in a respectful manner. I apologize to you and to the board. And I agree with your post.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 02:04 PM) .928 OPS. If the Sox had this guy do you think he would be considered the most offensively well rounded player on the team with those stats ? Right on the money. I deleted the rest of my gibberish and my apologies again.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 12:52 PM) The problem with acquiring a guy like Shields is if he does what he was acquired to do, be a 4th starter, it will be a disappointment to the majority of fans who expect him to be an ace. Anyone who expects him to be an ace needs a new prescription. If he can go 7 and give up 3, he's that #4 guy (probably a 5 on a really good team). Latos, season wide, has been a 5. Gonzales not really that (but slowly improving I suppose). So, if the Sox can get 7 give up 3, he'll be a help. My issue is that I don't think he can deliver that. But maybe he can - when you're on a bad team like the Padres, it's easy to lose focus, etc.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 12:28 PM) There is still 7 weeks to do so, and Rick made it clear that they are still actively shopping for improvements. I have no doubt they would love to find another power hitting OF. Probably true. Another patch. Maybe this time it will work.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 12:24 PM) I wonder if one of the reason they got Shields is possible trade bait before the deadline. Hahn and Williams aren't that creative.

IF he pitches well and the Sox continue to slide, they can dump him in 6 weeks for more than they gave up (if the FO is savvy and willing, both doubtful). If he pitches well and the Sox contend, even better. If he sucks, he's an albatross for 2.5 seasons.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 11:16 AM) They are super high on Lux. Sounds like they are worried he will be around at 26. That's a reach. Sign him for below slot, then and using the savings in later round.

QUOTE (flavum @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 11:05 AM) You can't do both? Are people actually wanting Robin to stay because: A) He's a good manager B) Manager doesn't matter, so why change in the middle of a season? C) I take the side of management no matter what, so until they make the move, I support their decisions. D) It's mostly unlikely they make a change, so I'll take that side because it's the "winning" side. E) The front office, primarily the top of the front office, is the problem in this organization. I don't think he's a good manager, but I'm indifferent re firing him at this point.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 11:07 AM) That is half an inning more, and it will go up once he isn't pinch hit for in the American League. You can see that pretty clearly in his pitches per start numbers and his IP/Start in the NL vs AL. We'll see. If he performs as you suggest AND the Sox at least seriously contend for the playoffs, the trade will have worked. But I think the only way this team contends is to do what this board has been begging them to do - trade any prospect necessary (with the requisite holdback of Anderson) for Brewers, Reds and Rockies. And it will be all or nothing for 16 and 17. And then nothing for a long time. Me, I wish they had continued what they started in 2013 for 2 more years: a sensible build-up of organizational depth. that would have allowed for contention for years to come, starting in 17.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 09:38 AM) Profile: RHP Cody Sedlock Also FYI, we now have a pinned Draft Week thread in PHT. Then on Thursday we'll pin the Day 1 thread in there with link to the Draft Tracker, as usual. One of those funky delivery guys. Doesn't seem like a #10.

QUOTE (Jose Paniagua @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 10:20 AM) Starting pitching NEEDED help. No question. Shields could be the third least meltdown prone pitcher on the current staff. At worst he's fourth. That fills a need. When your credential is not melting down, that's just not enough for a championship team. And as it is, his Seattle meltdown was a lot worse than any Sox starter has put up this year (except maybe for Danks - I try to forget). Now if he can settle down to a dependable 3/4: 7 innings, giving up 3 runs, than fine. Hope he does.

QUOTE (Tex @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 09:09 AM) In other words another organization's version of Ventura. He can't manage that team anymore, they want him out, etc. What other organizations have a manager who had never coached or managed an inning at any professional level and had been out of baseball for a decade before named manger? We night hire a retread, but people learn from their experiences.... but you need that depth of experience from which to learn.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jun 5, 2016 -> 12:13 PM) Cooper has influence on our lineup now? he probably makes a concerted effort not to. That's the point. As you detailed below, Ventura didn't have the credentials for the job (you're finally coming around). What's Cooper's excuse? Cooper has been KW's most trusted and loyal dugout chief. for years He'd be manager now, except that he doesn't have the personality for it. Cooper is one of the reasons that Ventura is manager. Cooper has the organizational power and the brains to shave down some of Ventura's warts, if he chose to. it's always going to be tough to bring in a real professional, experienced manager, when the pitching coach has more org. power.

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 08:18 AM) QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 08:18 AM) * They just do NOT have the depth to do so. This organization needs to focus on rebuilding that farm and decvelop the organizational positional depth. We are currently at the crossroads for KW and Robin. It's time for both of them to go for various reasons. I think Hahn can run a successful rebuild ( not being under KWs 'guidance') and he has many assets to trade at the deadline and during the winter if they decide to go this route. Well, I agree and have been posting daily that they need to build this org and then go for the vets. If they had kept on with it in the winter of 2014 and 2015 they'd be better off. But they aren't going to. I used to think that Hahn was good enough...at least there was little evidence to think he wasn't good enough. But when he brought the Dodgers into the Frazier trade and let Thompson go (instead of protecting his best young hitter) I have my doubts. The Frazier trade may have been "fair" for the Sox (probably was, although I wouldn't have done it), but there was surplus value to be had dealing with Jockety, but the Dodgers, not the Sox, got it.

I watched Dunn completely dominate my Green Wave, but he's a stretch at 10. Now, if they sign him below slot and use that to get a first/second round talent in later rounds, then great. But I haven't seen that level of finesse out of Hahn and Williams

QUOTE (Coach @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 07:47 AM) In response to your statement, why is Cooper considered one of the best in baseball then? Good question - why is he? His results don't come close to supporting that level of reverence.

QUOTE (Harry Chappas @ Jun 5, 2016 -> 08:46 AM) Free agency looks weak this off season and sox have excess cash so that makes great sense to pick up that contract at $9M per. In a month they can sign another Tatis rather easily Johnson had no value and the padre hope is that the NL and that park is what is needed. I continue to hold out hope for the bullpen. This offense is bad. In the end, the white sox are building for next two years. This will work IF Shields improves to a #3 guy in the rotation. How likely is that when he's a 5 now, 34 and getting worse? Availability of FAs is irrelevant when you acquire a #5. Sure they can sign another Tatis...except that Williams/Hahn are nowheresville on the top international players this year, when they should be all in. they can also draft another Fulmer and Anderson. The idea is to stockpile young talent, which is what winning organizations do. WE'll see about Johnson. he certainly didn't work well with Cooper and Cooper rules the world. Sox are just 2 aces short with Williams/Hahn running the show.

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Jun 5, 2016 -> 02:46 PM) The way I see it, the White Sox are ran like a country club. A bunch of friends hanging out and win or loss it doesn't matter because they are all making money and having fun together. Robin is a great friend to Kenny and JR loves his former players. Yep