GreenSox

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 03:45 PM) All 3. No manager could win with the AA team we're fielding right now. Andy Gonzalez? Ryan Bukvich? Come on. This is on KW, and solely on KW. How many games have we lost due to Ozzie compared to how many we have lost due to the s*** 25 man roster.I agree that no one could win with this roster (although Ozzie is doing about as bad a job with it as is possible). I think you significantly underestimate the influence that Ozzie has on personnel. Who wanted Lee, Ordonez and Frank off this team? That would be Ozzie and his ego. Who wants the free swingers and hackers on the team? Ozzie Who wanted Erstad ahead of the far superior Podsednik? Ozzie because Ozzie loves guys who can hit grounders to either side of the infield, and then run out their copius outs hard. Who wanted Anderson and Sweeney off this team quickly, but had no problem with Owens and his zero walks (until his last game) and zero RBIs for a month? Ozzie. Who actually uses .200 hitters with no power as pinch hitters and, incredibly, as DH? Ozzie. Now this team needed retooling after 03. Thank GOODNESS we won before Guillen got Kenny to completely change this team to, well, what we have this year.

After another brilliant day of managing from Ozzie Guillen, I hope any discussion of extending that clown manager, whose ego and incompetence is taking the Sox down the toilet, ceases.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 09:18 AM) At this point, I'd rather just keep using MacDougal for the rest of the year to see if he shows some improvement. Absolutely - he's got the "stuff" he's just wild. Jones is a declining free swinger who plays poor D. Even for the Cubs, he was just a filler-player. Mac was supposed to be our set-up man. Both are disappointments but Mac has more value. And to throw in a serious arm in addition? noooooo. Hell, I'd prefer Murton.

At least Podsednik has produced for the Sox and was producing this year prior to injury I'd rather producers who jog on outs, that hackers who run as hard as they can on outs and make a lot of them, but who don't produce squat.

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 09:06 AM) The Sox don't need a CF -- Erstad is penciled in for the next 3 years on KW's big board. It would be nice of Williams would pencil in a center fielder who could hit worth a damn. OH well, Erstad is a grade A hacker (check) - doesn't waste at bats by walking (check) and he doesn't disrespect Ozzie or Ozzie Jr (check); He's a true Sox, Ozzie-style. Mac Dougal is not worse than Jones, is younger and no way would we have given up 2 live arms for Jones last year. Mac Dougal for Jones this year would be a bad, bad trade for the Sox.

QUOTE(southsida86 @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 01:15 AM) I think that the days of trading prospects for a rental player are over. It's tougher, but it can be done - we did it, for example (on the other side). There are a lot of teams in races this year - that will help our chances. Also, you need a team with a stocked farm system that can trade some excess - I don't know if one of those is in the mix or not. As a general observation I notice that many people always suggest that we will get far less when we trade our good players, than they're willing to pay to get someone else's established veteran. It's imperative that Ken Williams pull this off.

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 08:27 AM) That year probably is what makes him attractive to KW. The Sox have 3 OF positions to fill next season and they'll bring in a veteran for at least one. Jones contract isn't huge (although it isn't how would want the Sox to use money) and signing a FA would take more years and money. I could easily see this deal getting done. Maybe for MacDougal plus a prospect like Russel? So for 2008, the OF would Jones in RF, Erstad in CF, and Sweeney or Pods in LF. Looking good. MacDougal (a reliever for whom we gave up 2 live arms) PLUS Russell (a legitimate prosepct) for Jock effing Jones? That's insane. Jones is hitting .230 and is in severe decline - you give zero talent for a player like that. He should be free, but a C prospect at most for this guy. He can't make the Cubs - a terrible team - and we're supposed to give up serious talent for him? At that price, we should get 6 grade A prospects for Mark B.

Not a day for good rumors. First the rumor that we're going to sign yet another crappy veteran, and an extension to the manager who has successfully convinced the GM to discard talent and load the team up with crappy veterans.

Just what the Sox need - another mediocre veteran. Baseball, Ozzie-style. Unbelievable. I really hope that Williams isn't living in such denial.

QUOTE(Brian @ Jun 22, 2007 -> 05:49 PM) Just bring up Anderson and Sweeney and let em play with Fields. I certainly could go for that. We couldn't do any worse and we'd perhaps help the future. But to do that, Ken Williams needs to have a sit down with his manager and say "patience with the young hitters my man; and keep thy ego in check". Williams needs to make the personnel decisions. Input from the manager - sure, like the input of 04 and 05 - not of 06 and 07. Williams built one world champion...he can do it again.

Ozzie Ball - take a world champion, add hackers and lungers, banish those ball players who dared to cross Ozzie or Ozzie Jr; and presto, you have the worst team in baseball.

QUOTE(AirScott @ Jun 21, 2007 -> 08:24 PM) You don't develop a guy like him into a five-tool player, and not every productive outfielder has to be. Owens could make a pretty good living as a slap-hitting terror on the basepaths who plays an adequate left field. I agree with that; And what is our alternative? More PT for Cintron, Mack and Gonzalez? Ooooh Erstad is coming back - some guaranteed .310 OBP. Can't wait. Any team that uses the woeful Cintron as a designated hitter is putting agendas ahead of winning and improving the club.

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Jun 21, 2007 -> 11:18 AM) In left, I'd be fine with it provided CF and RF have strong defenders. The Sox next season are looking at an OF of Sweeney, Erstad, and X and since neither Sweeney nor Erstad will provide much power I'd like to see X be a slugger in LF. Pena is still young, I think you can expect some over .800 OPS seasons from him playing regularly. Erstad has an obp of .310, no power, and is injury prone and declining. I hope the Sox are looking for an upgrade in center field.

QUOTE(CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jun 21, 2007 -> 07:02 PM) Anyone want to do a little bit of digging and see what the Sox record is with Erstad leading off and what the record is so far since he's been gone ? How many titles did we win with Timo Perez and how many with Erstad; or what was our winning percentage with Anderson and what was it with Erstad? My questions are silly and irrelevant. But ERstad is no leadoff hitter under any analysis, except Ozzie Guillen's who wants swing at everything types atop (and throughout) the lineup. For sure Podsednik is a far more accomplished leadoff hitter than is Erstad.

Look at the lineup Ozzie wheels out there game after game - every hacker, slapper and grinder you can imagine; this team is so obviously overmatched that it begs for high ceiling call-ups. But why play them when hackers like Cintron, Mack and Gonzales can cover the positions? Pinch hit for Cintron? ARe you kidding - it's Cintron who does the pinch hitting on this ballclub. I expect Cintron to bat cleanup tomorrow. Minus 2 injured slappers, this is the team ozzie wanted - hackers and slappers up and down the lineup: the result? 10 below, 10 out with 60% left to play.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jun 19, 2007 -> 09:07 PM) It's hard to find long relief work for long relievers/spot starters when your rotation is as consistent and durable as ours has been. The mistake is on KW not keeping Masset in AAA to get consistent work, same with McCarthy, not on Guillen. That's true - we don't have a huge need for long relief. He's talented (he has more than just middle relief talent) and he's learning in major league relief, even if the results aren't always there. It's primo experience that will serve him well. I'm not worried about him. We could trade some of the other bullpen pitchers for all I care, but I doubt we get anything for them; selling low in general isn't a great idea.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Jun 19, 2007 -> 05:14 PM) They don't look vital - however, their style of play is. Getting on base and speed helps an offense score runs a great deal. It can really give a boost and spark an offense. The White Sox are missing that big time. Pods gives that when he's healthy and playing well. But he's the only one on the roster who can remotely play that role, he's been injured the last 2 years, but we build zero depth there. Erstad's lousy at getting on base and has no power; but per ozzie he's a .400 quality hitter - with that sort of logic, no wonder we're 11 back.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jun 18, 2007 -> 06:56 PM) This is karma for laughing at the Cubs all those years waiting on Wood and Prior. Here we are waiting on Pods and Erstad. At first I laughed when I read that. But now I want to cry. It's so true, so true.

QUOTE(29thandPoplar @ Jun 18, 2007 -> 06:46 PM) Well the big news from the 2 hour Sox brain trust meeting this afternoon ... KW on the pregame basically says they (the players) want to see how they perform when Podsednik and Erstad get back, to see if the team can go on a run. Konerko was at the meeting, as was Guillen and Hahn and of course Williams. So it does not look like any trades will be made for now. My guess is they will evaluate where they are in two weeks, like July 1st. Yea, we'd be right in the thick of it if we hadn't lost erstad's 2 homers and .310 obp. And if they perform back to their .500 level, that will get us exactly, uh, where? If they perform better than that it won't get us anywhere. What are the players supposed to say: please trade us because this season's hopeless?

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jun 18, 2007 -> 06:19 PM) He's had some awfully good lineup protection in his career, and sees a ton of pitches, so he's not just getting pitched around. The Reds are never any good, but that's because they have nobody that can pitch other than Aaron Harang and David Weathers. He's a slugger type. Hi Ks, Hi homers, low average. Is that what we really need or do Konerko and Thome fill the slugger bill? We need some .360 OBP in the worst way; one with some speed to hit leadoff; another to replace Dye.

Any decent power hitter in the middle of the lineup will have a decent walk rate. They get pitched around a lot.

QUOTE(caulfield12 @ Jun 17, 2007 -> 11:20 PM) With Owens, we need speed to replace Erstad and Pods at the top of the line-up. I think Owens will go back down this week if he continues to struggle and they might have to bring up either Sweeney or Anderson again...or Erstad/Pods will come back. Don't forget Torrero, another player Ozzie has no problem with. This goes back to my basic question about Ozzie Guillen. Jerry Owens leads off for Guillen and in a month can't muster a single walk. Not one. How is that possible if Guillen and Walker are really teaching patience? That stat is so bad that it seems they are teaching impatience. Further, the fact that he can't get on base doesn't dissuade Ozzie from leaving up up top. He loves Erstad and his .310 OBP at the top; Except for 1 season (maybe 2) Erstad has been below average at getting on base, but he's exactly what Ozzie wants at leadoff. Where is there any evidence that Ozzie values patience, much less a leadoff man actually being able to get on base? I agree that Sweeney wasn't ready. But neither is Owens, Torrero and Gonzales never will be. It appears that we traded an outfielder with potential for another Ozzie-style low-ceiling utility infielder. I guess the idea is to leave the utility players up as they have limited potential anyway, and they have plenty of role models on this team. Meanwhile, Ozzie-ball is last in the AL in offense and 9 below .500 and dropping.

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Jun 17, 2007 -> 09:17 PM) Guillen has been right about every prospect he decided couldn't play. Anderson, McCarthy, and Sweeney have done absolutely nothing to prove Guillen was wrong. I don't think it's the major league coaching staff's fault that Sox prospects don't develop into impact major leaguers. They haven't been given a chance. Ozzie jerks Anderson around; despite a good second half and good spring, he benches him and gives him a handful of at bats in the first month. Sweeney played 1 month. (I certainly hope, Ozzie didn't put him into his dog house; he wasn't hanging around Ozzie, jr, was he?). We don't know that they're busts. Did Ozzie and Walker enable their development and allow them to bring out their best, whatever it may be. On the other hand, Jerry Owens, who has the lowest ceiling of the prospects and a .178 OBP (zero walks) stays up. Gonzales, a potential major league utility infielder, is playing outfield - he's not a serious prospect, but he gets serious playing time. Pretty soon Ozzie won't have any choice - he'll have to play prospects and hopefully he'll try to develop them. They don't need coddling (he does that with Vasquez, and it 's a failure) - they need teaching, leadership and development.

Most of the players on this team don't even know how to bunt. Greg Walker, Joey Cora - that's just comedy. Ozzie isn't exactly surrounding himself with potential successors.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jun 17, 2007 -> 06:45 PM) Guillen loves Danks and Sweeney, for two, but I'm not going to debate the rest of it all with you because last time you had htis discussion you kept insisting that Ozzie Guillen a. thinks he was a particularly good hitter, that b. Ozzie hates good hitters and c. Ozzie hates OBP all of which is absurd. PS: Ozzie didn't construct the bench. Really, tell me, give me some hope that ozzie gives a whip about OBP. What is there that makes you think he does? I forgot about Guillen's love for Torrero. Another hack at everything hitter. Wouldn't ONE of these players (other than the middle of the order hitters) have a decent OBP or walk rate if Ozzie and Walker cared about or taught plate patience? Hell, Jerry Owens doesn't have a walk all season. Not one. Ozzie calls erstad and his .310 obp a .400 quality hitter. I don't see it.