Reddy

wow wow wow wow wow. This is big. FBI wiretapped Manafort before and after election

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 15, 2017 -> 12:24 PM) So your "parallels between the Bernie left and the [white supremacist Nazi] alt-right" was just a 'joke' or? because my point was that your comparison was silly and just an attempt to tarnish those to your left with a weak association to modern nazis. It was hyperbole, but I do think there's some commonality between Bernie and Trump, their tactics, the way they mobilize their base, and the demographics of said base. This is getting us in the weeds, however, and distracting from the larger point that the DNC has made many concessions to Bernie, and the Party has given him positions of leadership. For him to use that as a platform to continually attack the party is a dick move. And if Bernie supporters care about winning in 2020, they'll think long and hard about calling for the nomination of someone who divides the party, as opposed to someone that may not make everyone on either side happy, but who we can rally behind together without having to continually re-litigate the divides created in 2016.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 15, 2017 -> 11:54 AM) That's the go-to example of why ad hominem fallacies are bad, dude. Just because Hitler supported interstate systems doesn't say anything about interstate systems one way or the other. Just because two groups both have a more isolationist bent than the warmongers who love to bomb bomb bomb doesn't say anything beyond that one overlap. Wait. You're taking this exchange seriously?

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 15, 2017 -> 11:48 AM) Given that it was built in the 1950's I'm going to go with a very solid yes on that. That's pretty much what I assumed. So the parallel you made is probably a pretty good one!

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 15, 2017 -> 11:42 AM) You know who else liked large, high speed motorways? Troubling links between the US interstate system and Hitler! was the US interstate system implemented by angry misogynistic white guys too?

QUOTE (GoSox05 @ Sep 15, 2017 -> 11:07 AM) Imagine thinking Bernie Sanders would have been an ineffective President, but thinking Hillary Clinton would have been very effective as she took advice from Henry Kissinger on what middle east country to bomb next. "Bernie Wing" is just the left and for the left, Bernie Sanders is the compromise. I like Bernie Sanders, but he is not my ideal politician. He still holds some s***ty views, he is by no means perfect. He is often criticized from the left on his foreign policy stances. He is so popular with the left in America, because he is literally one of the only people in government who holds any of these views even in the slightest way. it's really fascinating the parallels between the Bernie left and the alt-right, who also advocate total isolationism.

I'm in love with this thread.

And the entire shift in the platform to A Better Deal spawns from Bernie's economic populism. They're listening to him and giving him a voice even though he's not a member of the party, but it'll never be enough for Berners until they completely capitulate. There's no compromise among the Bernie Wing, which is why the man would be a horribly ineffective President.

QUOTE (GoSox05 @ Sep 15, 2017 -> 09:36 AM) I'd love to know what these concessions were. Yall were so obsessed with your DNC hate you must have missed this And this.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 10:56 PM) "Party unity my ass," the contingent of Hillary supporters who said they would refuse to support Obama after he won the nomination. I think pelosi is a great leader even if there are often times I disagree with her politics. I've been surprised by Schumer so far, expecting a much bigger step down from Reid. I voted Clinton last November and would do so again if they were holding another election tomorrow. But the base of the party, or at leasta decent portion of it, is or is moving substantially to the left of centrism. The American people as a whole seem to be fed up with the status quo. People by and large continue to struggle economically even if the stock market is surging and some segments of society are doing very well. Doubling down on the 90's and 00's era politics isn't going to appeal to these people. Sanders "independent" label is a gimmick, but he's always been a reliable vote for Democratic policies. He seems to have single handedly given a voice to the people looking to push the Democratic party as a whole leftward on multiple issues. I don't think he'd be a particularly strong president or leader of the party as a whole, but he does represent an important base and ignoring that is no better than the hardcore Bernie people who insist on their own version of purity politics. I agree with every part of your post, which is why the party has made concession after concession to Sanders and his supporters, yet nothing seems to be "enough". It's maddening.

QUOTE (Heads22 @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 09:28 PM) It's more that - if Bernie wants to help form the vision and the future of the Democratic party, if these ideals are so important to him - register as a Democrat. For me, it's never been so much #NeverSanders, but if you want to influence the direction of the party, actually join it. 100% I have very little respect for Sanders anymore. He cares more about his ego than he does actually advancing his causes, and what Heads said is a testament to that.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 04:16 PM) how many of the "#neversanders" people were also PUMA dopes back in 2008? Legit don't know what that is. A lot of us are smart, middle of the road "establishment" Democrats who supported Hillary, support Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi, and support keeping the party united when we've got SUCH an opportunity to win and win big.

QUOTE (JenksIsMyHero @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 12:03 PM) Again, read the link I provided. When it comes to an issue like free college, polling shows that only the dem base supports that idea. A large number in the middle think it's unfair to provide free college while they're paying back their own college debt. That's not an issue that is going to get people to vote D in the next few elections. Is free college in the Better Deal platform? I don't see it.

QUOTE (GoSox05 @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 12:14 PM) I'm glad most people don't think this way. There is a reason why other Democratic senators are jumping behind Sanders and this bill. They know what the future of the party is and it isn't Clinton and the "centrist wing". A large chunk of the Democratic base actually falls into the #NeverSanders camp as well. It would be wise not to discount that growing faction.

QUOTE (JenksIsMyHero @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 11:37 AM) I dunno, there's nothing new here. This is pretty stock Dem talking points. https://democrats.senate.gov/abetterdeal/#.WbqhiLKGNQI And Americans support those talking points. In 16 Dems ran on anti-Trump and identity politics. Had they won on the economy? Who knows. That's all people care about. It's [always] the economy, stupid.

QUOTE (bmags @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 11:46 AM) It is equally annoying that Sanders can critique Clinton's campaign/DNC without hand clenching, while any criticism of Sanders from Clinton is seen as outside the lines. this.

QUOTE (GoSox05 @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 11:27 AM) Why are liberals so obsessed with pointing out that Bernie Sanders is not a Democrat? It's just amazing. Because he's just the worst. Haha

QUOTE (bmags @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 10:54 AM) It is a downpayment on intent. The bill itself will need to change, and it clearly is likely the workability will largely be more in line with a medicare buy-in, however, this is the only new policy the democrats have introduced that has generated publicity that cuts through the daily noise and has organic excitement. DACA/Dream act I consider separate but has very good mobilization by some great grass roots orgs. Sanders is basically the only democrat that matters right now until someone can show the same ability to form a message. He's not a Democrat. Chuck Schumer says hi.

QUOTE (GoSox05 @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 10:49 AM) It's a good bill, that if anything is bringing attention to medicare for all, that is becoming a more popular idea in this country every day. You keep saying that you support single payer, but seem to say it's a bad idea every time Bernie Sanders or others try to get things passed. It's just the same pessimistic attitude from Democrats over and over. The party of "we won't be able to do that". - Every independent analysis determined that it was underfunded by $14-17 trillion over the next ten years - He estimates $438 billion per year in savings solely on administrative costs, even though administrative waste only comes out to $215 billion per year, and overtreatment, failures of care coordination, pricing failures, fraud, and abuse are all still possible avenues of administrative waste in any system - He said that he could decrease public spending on prescription drugs by $324 billion. Public spending on prescription drugs is only $305 billion. - He said that we could simply pay for most of our prescriptions through Canada, cause he is somehow under the impression that there's no such thing as differential pricing, and that Canada's government would subsidize and negotiate on behalf of hundreds of millions of Americans (hint: they said they wouldn't) - He said his 6.2% payroll tax will fall ONLY on employers. He somehow doesn't realize that the legal incidence of a tax is separate from the economic incidence of a tax. - The single payer bill failed in Vermont due to costs, and in California is failing too. Probably because it costs twice the state's entire budget. Not their entire healthcare budget. The whole budget. - It promises more comprehensive coverage than Medicare or the world's best single payer systems, without any details about controlling costs, without measures to check demand for services, without accounting for sticky wages in the healthcare industry, and without dealing with any impact to R&D.

QUOTE (JenksIsMyHero @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 10:31 AM) Did you read the story? The polling, from Democratic firms, is the opposite - every attack the Dems have made against this disaster of a President STILL isn't working. And the "solution" being offered - Bernie-promises of free college and free healthcare - also doesn't resonate with anyone but the dem base. It's almost as if what Dems think the country wants isn't what the country actually wants... Of course. Attacking the President on anything but policy won't work. Activists don't understand that, but Chuck and Nancy know it, and that's why they've been relatively tame all year. Now they're reaping the benefits. You can beat him on policy, and you can beat him on messaging - that's what A Better Deal is about. The policies offered in the new rebranding of the Democratic Party is EXACTLY what the country actually wants - now it's just about selling and messaging in a cohesive way moving into 2018.

QUOTE (bmags @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 10:18 AM) Reddy on Medicare for all - Meaningless bill that won't pass Reddy on Better Deal press conference people have already forgotten- This is a game changer! You have understood my positions. Well done!

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 10:42 AM) Also interesting that they immediately attack the black TV personality for her comments but not Ms. Texas a few days ago. Wonder why. ^ This

QUOTE (raBBit @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 12:37 AM) He's talking about how people on the left can espouse their political views (regardless of how informed or uniformed they are) with no recourse and people on the right or those with non-SJW views are held to a different standard. This is so completely inaccurate. Also, when we're talking about media personalities and backlash, those on the left tend to be attacking things like bigotry, racism, etc, even if they do so in tactless ways, while those on the right are actually perpetrating those things. There's a difference.

Can we talk about how brilliantly Chuck and Nancy are playing the GOP and Trump? I'm in love.

QUOTE (GoSox05 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 01:10 PM) Sanders will introduce universal health care, backed by 15 Democrats I think this is actually up to 17 now. Hopeful this continues to gain support. It's a meaningless bill that won't pass being used as a political football to get 2020 hopefuls Bernie-points. That's all. There's very little to see here in the short term. It's also just a bad bill. I support single payer - not this bill.