Reddy

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 03:38 PM) These are professional baseball players. They all have that hand/eye coordination skillset. Are you also suggesting Sammy's statistical drop off the face of the earth had everything to do with suddenly aging , and that steroid testing and penalties beginning exactly at that time just had to be coincidence? Making a player vastly stronger will make them a better hitter anyway. False. It will make the ball go faster and farther WHEN they hit it. It doesn't make them a better all-around hitter. Anabolic steroids do not improve hand-eye coordination, vision, alertness, anything else. There are drugs out there than can do those things, but anabolic steroids (the things that made Bonds and Sosa's muscles balloon) do not IIRC

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 03:38 PM) These are professional baseball players. They all have that hand/eye coordination skillset. Are you also suggesting Sammy's statistical drop off the face of the earth had everything to do with suddenly aging , and that steroid testing and penalties beginning exactly at that time just had to be coincidence? The steroids destroyed his body. His muscles probable grew to fast for his joints and ligaments to keep up. That happens all the time. And please refer back to Balta's post about roids affecting different players differently.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 03:31 PM) He was on the juice. When he was a White Sox and his first year with the Cubs, he was playing straight, and awful. So are you saying he was a bad player while juicing? Are you suggesting that steroids don't just inherently make you good?? Why was Sammy EVER bad, if, as you say, he was juicing his whole career!? the contradictions.

There's a base line. You already have to have the skills. Anabolic steroids just make you stronger and recover better.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 03:31 PM) He was on the juice. When he was a White Sox and his first year with the Cubs, he was playing straight, and awful. He was 20 years old. Almost every 20 year old in the major leagues is awful.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 03:27 PM) No, he wasn't a star calibur player. And where is your proof he wasn't juicing during those seasons you claim he was star calibur? You yourself said it just doesn't happen over one season, right? He had a comparable OPS+ to Justin Upton. He was an MVP candidate. That's star CALIBER.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 03:23 PM) No proof. Yesterday your "proof" that eye tests give you nothing was an article rating the top players and the difference between where the guys on Baseball Tonight ranked them and where WAR ranked them. In the article you used as "proof" the author stated they didn't know which one was more correct. LOL. Yesterday has no bearing on the fact that I just listed statistics, which are facts, and which are not opinions. And those facts showed that Sammy Sosa was a star-caliber player before using steroids, which is the discussion we're currently having, right?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 03:17 PM) Prove it. You're in denial that Piazza ever juiced. You make obnoxious claims and tell everyone else to prove you wrong. Why don't you just prove yourself right. Can you link a medical article that says steroids won't make a bad hitter a superstar? Facts say they added 400 points to Sammy Sosa's OPS. If they have that effect on a .600 OPS guy, they just made a bad hitter a superstar. Weird that Sammy Sosa was a .850 OPS guy before steroids. Give me an example of a .600 OPS player who jumped to 1.000 and maintained it. Honestly your posts are making me laugh out loud at their sheer ridiculousness.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 03:09 PM) Here's a really simple way of explaining Sosa. Prior to '98, he'd shown himself to be about a 125 OPS+ player, where 100 is average. He was significantly above average. For comparison, Justin Upton has a career 121 OPS+ So yes, he was a "star" prior to steroids. Then those steroids gave him a huge spike, to a peak of a 203 OPS+ in his age 32 season. Shortly thereafter his body breaks down, and he's out of baseball by 36. But be clear. He was a star before his steroid explosion. DA. Please read my post just a couple posts up. I quoted it here to make it easier on you. I already laid out all the proof I need re: Sosa. You're just literally covering your eyes and spurting nonsense to distract yourself from it.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 03:10 PM) I am not trying to be really smart, just showing the guy who thinks he is really smart making all theses claims like eye tests tell you nothing, steroids won't make you a great hitter, that again, he is wrong. see above, bud. I've said from the beginning, that they don't make a BAD hitter a superstar. They CAN make a GOOD player a superstar. Reading comprehension for the win. ETA: PWND by stats.

Here's a really simple way of explaining Sosa. Prior to '98, he'd shown himself to be about a 125 OPS+ player, where 100 is average. He was significantly above average. For comparison, Justin Upton has a career 121 OPS+ So yes, he was a "star" prior to steroids. Then those steroids gave him a huge spike, to a peak of a 203 OPS+ in his age 32 season. Shortly thereafter his body breaks down, and he's out of baseball by 36. But be clear. He was a star before his steroid explosion.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:57 PM) As a 28 year old Sammy put up a .779 OPS .251 with a .300 OBP which makes him an average hitter with power As a 32 year old Sammy put up a 1.174 OPS .328 with a .437 OBP, Great hitter. Explain. Steroids.... What is your point? I feel like you think you're being really smart right now, but cherry picking his age 28 season (a down year) as opposed to his age 27, 26, or 25 season is meaningless in evaluating a players trends over a career.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:49 PM) Barry Bonds was a star before he started juicing, not Sammy. Bonds hit .370 as a 37 year old. As a 39 year old, put up a 1.400 OPS. Sorry, even when he won an MVP or 2 when he was skinny, he was nowhere near that, and if he played it straight, no way he is near .370 his age 37 season. I'm not even sure what you think you're arguing for or against, to be honest. Are you trying to say that Sammy was bad before roids? Or... what? What's your point regarding age? C'mon man, make some salient points!

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:43 PM) He added .077 points on his batting average and .137 to his OPS between from his age 28 season to his age 32 season. Once again, facts don't line up with your claims. And the three years before, his OPS was .888, .840, and .884 with 25, 36, and 40 homers respectively Way to cherry pick useless stats. He was already a star before he exploded in '98. The only time he was ever "bad" was when he was a 20-22 year old in the major leagues, which is NORMAL.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:40 PM) One other thing to note is that steroids will not impact everyone the same way, and hell, different steroids will impact different people in different ways. Palmeiro liked winstrol because it didn't make his whole body explode, Bonds didn't care so he went with the THG that turned him into a chemical monster. Other guys who did those might have had different effects. A shorter boost could have helped with an injury recovery one time but led to joint degredation a couple years later. Someone might have grown a muscle too rapidly and then torn that muscle, ending their career. This isn't a double-blind study where "steroid a = more strong guy = hall of famer" . It's Steroid concoction 1 + person's own chemistry + person's own skills + how the "specialist" manages the juicing = the final player result. Some could work very well, others could have worked very poorly even on the exact same regimen. absolutely.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:35 PM) Yup, I've always said that. There's a thin line between an everyday major leaguer and a superstar. Steroids can make that difference. Sure they did, otherwise he would have been a 62nd round draft pick that made it to the majors, but never would have been even considered for the HOF. .300 points of OPS is a thin line? And your second statement is completely subjective and meaningless. No player has ever actually outed Piazza ON THE RECORD - and that means something. The case against Piazza is weak at best. It would be better if we talk Sosa as our example player.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:32 PM) Sammy Sosa. Sosa was never bad. He was young his first few years in the league. He started hitting well at the age when players usually break out. He was already very talented and the steroids put him over the top.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:28 PM) Without steroids, those fringe minor leaguers may have never reached the level they did. Steroids can turn a borderline A baller into a AA or AAA player. So you mean the player has to already be very talented for steroids to make him a superstar? You mean they didn't make a 62nd round draft pick into the best hitting catcher of all time?

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:26 PM) Ok, when you start providing proof to the contrary I guess we will all say that Reddy is correct. I am just gonna sit here and say its pretty weird that Brady Anderson had an insane statistical year in the same season that McGwire and Sosa started breaking baseballs. Why he discontinued using them? I have no idea, maybe he had a come to jesus moment where he worried about the aftereffects and stopped using. Some people have a guilty conscience about these things The problem is that steroids don't work that way. They don't just INSTANTLY make you a great player for the ONE season in which you take them. If they did, why on earth are the vast majority of busted steroid users fringe minor leaguers!?

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:23 PM) Prove me wrong. Oh wait, you can't because Bud Selig didn't care that his players were roided up and there was no drug testing. Prove Frank Thomas didn't use steroids.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:23 PM) Yup. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck... it might be a goose.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:23 PM) Prove me wrong. Oh wait, you can't because Bud Selig didn't care that his players were roided up and there was no drug testing. Burden of proof is on the claimant. Sorry.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:22 PM) Serious question, do we really know that Piazza used steroids? I wasn't alive during the majority of his Dodger years and I didn't start watching baseball until he had just left the Mets, so I have no knowledge on whether or not he used them. No we don't. There's no proof he used, though there are stories from ex-players. But he never failed any test or was caught doing anything illegal.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:20 PM) ding seriously? you guys believe that? you believe that after a season like Anderson had, he went "you know what, maybe I shouldn't use these anymore. I don't like making millions of dollars" Ridiculous.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:19 PM) Because Anderson only used them for one season while Piazza kept using them his whole career? It's not rocket science here. You have literally zero proof on either count.