Soxbadger

QUOTE (whitesoxjr27 @ Oct 19, 2017 -> 10:14 PM) Tell that to the Cub fans on Twitter that are b****ing and moaning. Who cares, their season is over. If they dont want Q, maybe theyll take Rutherford for him???

QUOTE (bmags @ Oct 19, 2017 -> 04:28 PM) I understand. Different audiences require different arguments but I do hope there is always space to make and think through the argument you truly believe in with the words you believe in. And I hope so too. But right now we are in crisis mode, so we have to do whatever it takes. QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Oct 19, 2017 -> 04:34 PM) Respectfully, I think you are looking at this the wrong way. Your flat Earth analogy isn't on point with what we're dealing with here because this isn't about convincing the flat Earthers that the world is round. It's convincing enough people who either don't care about the argument generally to agree that the Earth is round. The goal is to prevent Donald Trump - who is uniquely unqualified for the job as President of the United States - from winning a second term. That doesn't mean only convincing Donald Trump's supporters that he is uniquely unqualified, it also involves getting people who might not have voted because of voter ID laws, or people who feel that both parties are different sides of the same coin, or people who are apathetic about politics to participate in 2020. It's about creating as large of a tent as possible from the voter pool. If someone feels that the political machine systematically ignores the issues minorities face in this country because they don't confront racist words and acts, you risk pushing that voter out of your tent - and that should be an easier person to pull into the tent than the person who thinks that kneeling during the National Anthem is the worst sin an American can commit. Based on what we've seen in the first 10 months of the Trump Presidency, I have no hope that said support is going to come from Republicans in any meaningful way. Politico had an article up about Jeff Flake today (linked below) that was littered with quotes from Republicans wondering why Flake would criticize the President in an election year. Trump's base is rabid, and his base is keeping previously mainstream Republicans from talking about the stuff that makes President Trump uniquely unqualified to lead. You need more Republicans to speak out against the things that make Donald Trump unique. http://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/19/j...-arizona-243925 Illini, You may be right. I think the best strategy would be to employ both methods depending on the audience. That being said, I just dont really have faith in people who didnt vote last time to now vote this time. I think that with a slightly better focus, Trump is beatable and I think that focus is on WI, MI and PA. Focus on the result of the last 4 years, that when your in charge you have no one to blame but yourself. That is being a leader, accepting that the buck stops there. (edit) SS2k, Does bring up a good point. People like Bush etc, admitted to not voting for Trump. Not sure I can recall that ever happening before (but then again it would have been before I was born.)

QUOTE (bmags @ Oct 19, 2017 -> 03:59 PM) My response prior I think addresses this. And while I understand your critique as a form of effective messaging, I resist the idea of applying fault of Trump's election on people accurately calling Trump as uniquely dangerous instead of those without the ability to critically interpret obvious signs correctly. If you think Im blaming people for accurately calling Trump something youre missing the point. The point is that people inaccurately (or accurately depending on your perspective) calling other people something, may have led to calling Trump it meaningless. And now that we have gotten to the point where it may be meaningless, you need to re-frame the argument. Im not blaming anyone, if I blame anyone its the people who cant think for themselves and realize this on their own. But since I cant change them, I have to work in their confines. (edit) To go back to the Earth is flat argument. Lets say I have a picture of the round Earth and someone keeps disagreeing. I am not blaming the person who shows the picture, I am blaming the person who wont accept the fact. BUT, if my life depends on convincing that person that the Earth is round, I certainly am going to do whatever it takes to convince them, even if it means that I stop using the picture and I try to convince them in another way. Thats the point. Its not about the truth, its about what "people believe" and eventually you have to accept that it is their belief, no matter how wrong you may think it is. And until you accept that its their belief, you will be pounding your head against a wall.

QUOTE (bmags @ Oct 19, 2017 -> 03:53 PM) Here's why I'm fine with your argument, because sure, evil is an absolute. But I find it immature that the approach is to force others to accept the framing that there can be no nuance in framing someone as evil. And I say this because it is so stupidly happening with racism. If you call someone a racist, people jump in front of him like heroes "No! No! he can't be a racist! Racists carry flaming torches and chant nazi phrases!" And when they ARE carrying torches and chanting nazi phrases "No, no, they...need to be physically attacking a minority and saying they are doing it because they are a minority!" Bush may not have been purposefully doing evil things because he likes doing things that offend the conscience, but he enabled and hired a whole lot of people in the administration that he was the executive that performed many evil acts. And maybe this was just a lack of uncertainty in the world. BUt their "we know the answers now give us the information to prove it" mindset created these gigantic cracks in the world that many innocent people slipped into with no way to get out. Crime charges with no way to prove innocence, captivity with torture, never ending war with no clarity with what constitutes success. But, at the very least, there were many moments in the Bush admin that showed they were still operating within the norms of American politics and civility. Ashcroft holding orders. When Scooter Libby was being prosecuted there was no sense they'd just pardon him before and refuse an investigation. They seemed to accept, if not respect, opposition performed through our institutional means. And that last graph is what I just don't see happening. They do not respect that checks can happen if they do not benefit them. And make the case that anything that does not benefit them is illiberal, but worse, partisan and part of a conspiracy. It's incredibly dangerous. Bmags, Maybe in a better world people could understand nuances and not live in absolutes. But you play the hand your dealt. So if I think that calling people "evil" will result in Trump being re-elected Im going to argue against it until the end of time. And its the same with calling them racist. Words mean nothing. If you could have framed Hitler differently and it resulted him never being elected, wouldnt you do it? Who cares if its not "nuanced." Ends justify the means.

Strangesox, Where did I say you cant call them "conservative". The comment is "evil". Do you believe that being a conservative makes you "evil?" Bmags, Again. Because I cant control what other people do. What I can control is what I do. What I can do is to try and do everything in my power to accomplish what goals I want. I dont want another President like Trump. If that means that I have to do certain things to ensure it, I will. If those things dont harm me in anyway, then why do I care? I dont care what people would or would not do if anyone else was President. I care what I have to do to try and make sure that Trump wont win in 2020. That is the beginning and the end of the argument of why do this.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Oct 19, 2017 -> 03:28 PM) He did evil things and empowered evil people. His administration is responsible for two forever wars that have caused hundreds of thousands of deaths. Do you think Obama is evil? Do you think Truman is evil? Thomas Jefferson? I could make arguments for all of them. But I leave that term for people who I truly think are trying to purposefully do bad things. And that is the difference, evil requires intent. If Bush was truly evil, he wouldnt be friendly with Obama, he wouldnt be out there trying to make things better. If you cant see the difference between Trump and Bush, I dont really know what else to say.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Oct 19, 2017 -> 03:27 PM) the key flaw in your argument is that you're basically always letting conservatives off the hook for voting for increasingly awful and incompetent candidates and policies. at the end of the day, they're still the ones who voted Trump and it shouldn't matter if Democrats called McCain or Romney too conservative. Ends justify the means. Why do we keep having this circular argument? If not sensationalizing the "evilness" of people means that guys like Trump never get elected again, then why not do something to change it? Seriously we just elected someone that I wouldnt leave in charge of my goldfish. At some point you have to start looking in the mirror and asking "What can I do to change this." Maybe there are a million other things to blame, but if those things are out of my control, dont I have to focus on what I can control. What I can do? Whatever happened in the past is the past. No amount of labels is going to change what was done 1 second ago, let alone 10 years ago. But what we can change is tomorrow, next year whatever. And if approximately 50% of the population thinks the earth is flat, and we keep showing them the same picture of the earth being round and it isnt changing their mind, maybe we need to show them a different picture? It doesnt matter how stupid or whatever it is.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Oct 19, 2017 -> 03:23 PM) what if Bush and Trump are both evil and terrible Presidents but in different ways and neither should ever have come close to having any real power Do you really believe that Bush is evil? Deep down, do you actually believe that? Its a serious question, because evil is a lot different than "terrible", "unqualified", etc.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 19, 2017 -> 03:17 PM) Boy that sounds familiar... Ive agreed and disagreed with pretty much every person on this board at some point. And despite having many differences, you are one of the people who have consistently said that, and to me its scary that other people arent seeing the results. We are watching America being dumbed down by an elite wealthy class and people who are seemingly intelligent are falling for it.

QUOTE (GoSox05 @ Oct 19, 2017 -> 03:08 PM) His administration lied about why we were going into war. I could also list off dozens of other reasons why he is horrible, but we should know them all by now. This constant looking back at people like George Bush with rose colored glasses is probably why we continue to see people like Donald Trump get elected. I can't wait to see all the same people get excited for Donald Trump to join #TheResistance during Roy Moore's administration. IMO its actually the opposite. Demonizing Bush led to the rise of people like Trump because when people tried to show how Trump is truly an evil/incompetent/unfit person it just seemed like noise. Its no different than the boy that cried wolf, if you call every little puppy a wolf, eventually people tune it out and then when the real wolf comes, no one listens. And Im not saying Bush was good/bad, just that when you say he is a "war criminal", you then have to put a bunch of other President's into that list as well. Id rather not deal in sensationalism. If you believe Bush was wrong on X, say he was wrong on X. The same away if Obama is wrong with Y. But its way to easy to say "Bush/Obama are war criminals", and that is what society is becoming. Most of life is grey, its not black, its not white.

QUOTE (GoSox05 @ Oct 19, 2017 -> 02:50 PM) He started an endless war that has resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-love/w...fo_b_85652.html People voted for the resolution. Putting it all on Bush is just not factually correct. And you can pull the threads on this board, I was probably the most vocal opponent to attacking Iraq, because I guaranteed they would not find any real WMD's. And no sarin gas doesnt count.

QUOTE (GoSox05 @ Oct 19, 2017 -> 02:30 PM) George W. Bush slams Trumpism, without mentioning president by name George Bush is cool now!! Nah, just kidding, he is still a piece of s*** war criminal. The amount of Democrats that are now going to start kissing his ass is going to be pretty awful. While I may disagree with many of his decisions, I have consistently stated that he is not nearly as bad as people made him out to be.

The internet has really screwed up facts. Its shocking how little people know and how much people rely on what they read on the internet.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 19, 2017 -> 10:23 AM) I am like Soxbadger, I have rarely used the health insurance. I am a huge total net loss when it comes to payout vs. service, but a couple of years ago, our HR department actually sent an email complaining that the employees were using the insurance too much and that rates were going to skyrocket. This happened with our dental plan last year. Met life jacked up our rates so we went to Delta Dental.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 19, 2017 -> 10:19 AM) Can you switch to a "Gold" plan if you're in the private market? The CSR payments only affect the standard silver plan. The cost on a "Gold" plan is higher, but the subsidies are also higher and that can help balance it out. Basically you'd wind up paying somewhat more, the government would wind up paying a lot more, and you'd get better coverage overall? My plan is the gold PPO plan. I could drop down to a worse plan, but even the silver plan is hundreds of dollars more than my gold plan was last year. (edit) Its not the CSR payments. Its that health insurance companies have no idea what to predict is going to happen, so they are just increasing rates everywhere just in case. And since congress/ President Trump wont pass meaningful legislation we are all going to be stuck in a cluster. I mean how controversial is a bill that would limit premium increases to X% a year as long as you have continued insurance and keep the same plan.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 18, 2017 -> 02:27 PM) Do we really need to list all of the white people that this idiot has gone after? Can I start with a bid of John McCain? That's a horrible argument. Someone can be racist and also attack white people, its not mutually exclusive. But there is no point in arguing about whether he is a racist or not. 1) Its hard to prove and 2) it may not even move the needle for many voters. Which is why I think its better to stick to things he actually does (or doesnt do.) Like when he completely disrespected the entire military and a few former Presidents by lying. But then again he is super pro America because he stands for the flag and attacks people.

QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Oct 18, 2017 -> 02:04 PM) I think the border security and flow of illegals that Obama wanted to stop he's doing a good job on. The wall idea seems ridiculous but overall I'd say he's been a positive influence on the southern border. Other positives? Haha i dunno I dont really know what has been accomplished. My opinion on immigration is completely opposite of his, so anything he does on immigration is usually a big negative. Im usually in the Cato line of thinking that immigrants are good. https://www.cato.org/research/immigration I also think if we made legal immigration easier, we could then spend more money cracking down on criminals trying to come here.

QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Oct 18, 2017 -> 01:51 PM) There will be positives too. Do you ultimately think the negatives will outweigh the positives? I dont know. Its impossible to predict the future. But as of today I havent really seen any positives. That being said, maybe tomorrow Trump wakes up realizes that his plans are harming American's and decides to be the "deal maker" and works out a deal so that we all have better cheaper insurance. Maybe he ends his stupid crusade against immigrants, foreign trade, the environment, etc. Who knows. But I dont think that there have been tangible positives for many people at this time.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Oct 18, 2017 -> 12:28 PM) His track record proves otherwise. Its hard to prove intent, but making the allegations distracts from all of the other terrible things he has done which are easier to prove. The attack line of Trump is racist, womanizer, etc. didnt work. We can either keep trying something that didnt work, or we can realize that it didnt work and try something else. I personally think that now Trump has track record in politics, we should just stick to attacking that record. I think there is a chance that by the next election every person in America will have their life personally impacted in a negative way by what Trump does. That is what the focus should be on.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Oct 18, 2017 -> 12:19 PM) You haven't seen a doctor in 10 years? Besides for a check up, I havent needed to. (edit) I meant a claim as in, surgery, xrays, etc. A check up is a few hundred dollars.

QUOTE (Brian @ Oct 18, 2017 -> 12:06 PM) https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/201...-premiums-trump Yep this is what BCBS said when we asked about our premium increase of almost 50%. They said that due to the uncertainty of insurance laws that they had to basically price everyone in to the worst possible outcome. Is it what it is. But obviously stings to see your premium go up that much when you have never had a single insurance claim in almost 10 years of having the policy.

Bringing race into this is just distracting. What Trump said about the former President's is abhorrent and he should apologize and retract his statement.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Oct 16, 2017 -> 04:32 PM) Just bought a Switch, with NBA 2K18 and Mario Kart. Any suggestions? Zelda is my suggestion.

A few years ago there was a big outrage that Starbucks didnt use red cups for the holidays.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 16, 2017 -> 03:52 PM) I'll have to do a google but remember when airlines wouldn't allow their employees to say it, just Happy Holidays? Plus some stores, I'm assuming Wal Mart, Target types. Some media companies could only put "Happy Holidays" on their Websites as company policy. Who else? Pretty much any employee could not wish a customer a Merry Christmas. I think we discussed this on here years ago where I was in the minority position getting fried for getting upset about the issue. Serious question: Why do you think its okay for the President to do this? Would you be okay if the President tried to force companies to follow Sharia law? These are businesses, they should be able to do whatever they want. Its their money.