Soxbadger

I disagree. I watched the KU Bucknell game as Wisconsin would play them if the Badgers won, and Self just got manhandled as a coach. I also watched the Illini under Self against Wisconsin, and Wisconsin generally out coached and outplayed him. Then when Weber took over it all changed, instead of being a team that played self-centered (haha edit no pun intended) basketball, they became a team who played defense. That is why Illinois would still make the NCAA tournament, because they have a different mindsight. When you look at the Wisconsin program the last few years, its not filled with dynamite recruits, or all everything players, its filled with team players. People who understand that in a system, 5 average players can be world beaters. I guess I just can not say enough about how good of a coach Weber is. He is the first coach I have seen take it to Bo Ryan. Its not all about recruiting, its only about recruiting when it gets down to those final 8 teams and eventually a team like UNC just can out talent a team like Wisconsin. As for last year, I do not think the Illini are a #1 seed with Self. I just do not think he is capable of consistently beating well coached teams.

I need some KU kool aid. 1. Even with out Dee Brown, Illinois was still going to the NCAA tournament. They would be a much lower seed, but still in the tournament none the less. 2. Had Self coached the Illinois team not Weber last year, they do not make the final 2, they do not make the final 4, and they do not make the elite 8. Im sorry, but Weber is what makes Illinois the team it is, not the talent. 3. KU is a very very good football program. (Im sorry but that statement will make me laugh for a long time.) In the end, if I had to chose to put my money on Illinois or KU being the better program over the next 10 years, I would go with Illinois. KU imo seems to be on the decline, and eventually will lose its "national program" status. Soon people are going to say "What have you done for me lately" and the answer will be not much.

I bet everyone here would sleep with that girl if they were drunk as Big Ben in that picture. The man could hardly keep his eyes open, anyone that has drank has been there and know's what beer goggles can do to anyone's perceptions. Not to mention underlit bars make it hard to tell what type of merchandise your getting. I would bet they were the most attractive girls at the bar though.

Wisconsin seems to have locked up all its guys. Pretty decent recruit's with Kendrick's and Lance Smith. 2 quality CB's and as always a good group of line recruits. Next year should be interesting to see if Beckum hits the field.

Yeah well being that I am from Illinois, its just frustrating that of all the teams in the Big 10, Illinois is the one who has had Wisconsin's number the last few years. But I guess on the other hand atleast they have been losing to arguably the best team in the conference the last few years.

Any time a team can go about 9-10 minutes at home and not scoure a FG, you have to start wondering about its make up. I think the Badgers could of as easily blown out Illinois last night as lost to them. In terms of talent, it was pretty even. But Wisconsin is just not playing to its talent level. They do not play with any sense of urgency, and they just seem to coast for long time periods. Another problem is that when they start to miss shots, instead of working harder for good shots, they start to just fire threes. And while the Illini were making their 3's the Badgers have consistently missed them this year. Its hard to tell whether Landry and Steitsma really have hurt the team this much, or whether the players are just not hitting their shots. I think Wisconsin had plenty of good looks, especially when they were up 12, they just could not hit their shots. I dont know, I expect more out of Ryan. I dont mind if they lose, I mind when they get outplayed and out coached. That is not Wisconsin basketball, especially when they had the Illini in foul trouble and should of been taking advantage of match ups. Im just worried that they are starting to lose their swagger, and the belief that they are not going to lose. Im sure its a long shot for them not to make the tourney, but at the same time when they make the tourney Wisconsin fans expect atleast 1 or 2 wins, and this team does not seem to put it together against good teams. The aberration is that MSU game where they just thrashed em. But if Wisconsin had shot anything from the 3 against the Illini it could of been like MSU. Ah well, most of the team is young so its not like there will be a drop off next year.

Good win by Illinois, I think the most frustrating part as a Wisconsin fan is that you do not expect your team to be out coached, and that is what happened. Ryan just could not seem to get a grasp of the match ups, and the Badgers failed. The one that bothered me the most was Ray Nixon versus Dee Brown. Nixon is about 6'9 with a huge wingspan and was being gaurded by Brown. Why they did not post him every time, I will never understand. Ah well, Badgers better start picking up the pace or they may miss the NCAA tournament.

Very very good football program? Are you that big of a homer. And I stand by my statement, Illinois will be a better football program. As for KU, yes they are improving, no they are not a very very good program. I would not even say they are an average program. Also outrecruiting K-State and Missou, 2 programs on the decline isnt really something to be bragging about.

Wow Wisconsin a pick em at home, if I had the money id bet on that. Eventhough they are struggling on the road, outside of one egg against ND State, Wisconsin has basically been unbeatable at the Kohl center since its construction. And this thread has way to much Kansas Illinois, atleast Illinois will be able to beat KU in football soon.

Wisconsin really needs Ray Nixon or Brian Butch to step up tonight and score some points. I hope Wisconsin learned a lesson from the Michigan game and comes out attacking with Taylor and Tucker. Should be a good game, Im not all that confident because of Wisconsin's recent depth problems, but I think Taylor may come out and really start to take the game over. After Grahm knocked him out in the Michigan game he really started to turn it on. And hopefully they dont show Wilkinson's gf, its just wierd now. And the Kohl Center should be pretty loud.

I felt the same way against Minnesota. Just an unpredictable team that always seems to hurt you.

And so Ive basically seen Leinart and Young play every game. But when I argue on an internet message board I cant say: Listen guys I swear that I have seen them play and this is what I think. I have to back up my conclusions with hard evidence. If I had a television show I would run tape and comment, but I dont have that luxury so I work with what I have, argument and hard numbers.

Um so what do you judge them by, who has the coolest name? All you have is tape and numbers. Tape is an explanation of the numbers, in case there is some abberation that the numbers deceive, ie Florida or BYU. I think at the combine you will see Young really start to get hot. (Edit) Actually what do numbers really mean about a players ability at the pro level either? Maybe they are a system back and in another system wouldnt excel. Maybe they are a qb that puts up big numbers but does not win a lot of games. Or maybe the reverse. You can really attack any way of judging a player. So what else should we do? Throw darts at a board.

I would take the guy who progresses. Its not where you start the race, its where you finish isnt it? Leinart arguably has regressed. His lowest TD output combined with his second highest int ratio. The biggest question I have is why did Leinart not progress? With the superior talent of USC, he should have been able to put up BYU numbers. Instead we are forced to argue whether he is better than Vince Young in the air only. Leinart should have smashed Young's numbers. The reality is, Young probably is going to go into a situation where he will get to sit for 1 year maybe more. If he goes to the Titan's hes going to get Chow as an OC, who developed Leinart and get to sit behind McNair who is already a friend of his, and who can teach him how to be a big physical QB, who can use his legs to break a defense's back. I think what is being underestimated most, is that Vince Young may be one of the most gifted running Qb's. He is not small, he is a giant. When those twins tried to tackle him it looked like midgets against an ogre. He has an outstanding ability to see the field and make the "smart" decision. He does not force bad plays. Even at his worst he's only thrown 11 picks in a season, and went the national championship game with out 1 turnover. That shows that he has a good ability to manage the game, and that he does not make bad errors. When he played Michigan a season earlier, he had less rushing attempts than Cedric Benson but ran for over 120 more yards and 4 more tds. (Benson had 23 attemps for 70 yards 0 td, Young had 21 attempts for 192 yards 4td.) In the championship game against FSU, Vick put up: Vick 23-97. In my opinion Young is a once in a life time talent, and I will be here when he gets the chance to play. Given time to develop and learn the position and how to be effective like McNabb, McNair, and Culpepper, Young will win some games.

2 of the 3 analysts (Kiper being the only dissenter) at the senior bowl said Young was the #1 qb in the draft. Kiper put Young second. Also they said Fischer last year when scouting Benson could not take his eyes off Young. Which is remarkable since Young this year and last year is shocking. So if he liked him last year, he must love his progression.

Only consolation from the Michigan loss is MSU already had dropped one there, so now the teams are back where everyone thought originally (most had Wisconsin and MSU winning at Michigan). Now the question is, will Michigan win at home against any of the following: OSU, Indiana, or Illinois. Michigan could prove to be a real wildcard for the rest of the Big 10 season. Wisconsin just has to play with more urgency quicker, its nice to see that they dont give up and they get pissed about losing, but where was at that fire at 15 or 10 minutes left? They have a real problem on the road at getting complacent. Cant wait for Michigan to come to the Kohl Center, have a feeling that its gonna be pretty obnoxious there. Wisconsin fans are anything but classy, but its not about making friends either.

Woah lets not let facts get in the way of this argument. Vince Young cant throw, eventhough there are no statistics to prove this. He also has a weak arm.

It looks like during half time the refs decided to drink more crazy juice. I hate to complain when it helps Wisconsin, but at some point you just have to say that the game is no longer fun because the refs have so severely screwed it up.

Were you watching WCIU or ESPN 2? Cause WCIU put up a similar stat and I thought thats what I heard.

I think the 0-16 stat is supposed to be, Penn State at MSU. The other is over all. But honestly im so frustrated with the fact the refs forgot to put in their contacts.

Worst officiated half of a game that I have ever seen. Refs have put on the bench Michigan's best players and Wisconsin's. And by far Maze Rage is the stupidest college section name.

Wisconsin Michigan game is pretty bizarre. Wisconsin shot terribly but Michigan just kept shooting 3s so Wisconsin has been able to hang around. Terrible officiating is what will decide this game, as the refs keep making horrible calls but they are benefitting Wisconsin in the long run.

I think that by the end you will see serious consideration for Young to be #1 or #2 over all. I dont care what Hoge says, there is no player in the draft that could have a more dominant impact in the NFL. That is not to say he 100% will, but that is how he projects. What did Hoge say about Cutler and Leinart? Hope he said Cutler is a day 2 as well.

What about 1 degree of seperation. Texas and USC played 2 teams which then played eachother; Texas played OSU at OSU. USC played ND at ND. On a neutral field OSU beat ND. Vince Young versus OSU: Passing: 18/29 270 9.3 2 2 Rushing: 20 76 3.8 0 32 Leinart Versus ND: Passing: 17/32 301 9.4 0 2 Rushing: 6 -11 -1.8 1 2 Now lets look at how the OSU QB faired against ND: Troy Smith 19/28 342 12.2 2 Rushing: 13 66 5.1 0 15 And the ND QB: Brady Quinn 29/45 286 6.4 0 0 Rushing: 10 -32 -3.2 0 5 I think its fair to say that OSU is a superior defensive team to ND. I also think its fair to say that Young did better against the OSU defense than Leinart did against the ND defense. Now if you look at what Smith did to ND, and imagine what a Vince Young would have done, I just dont get it. Big 12 > Pac 10 and Im not a Big 12 fan either. In the end, Young put up similar numbers to Quinn and he did it at the horseshoe. Kiper is predicting Quinn to be the #1 pick next year, so basically Young out performed the guy Kiper thinks is the best QB next year. Leinart was out performed by Smith, albeit a neutral field. The statistic that strikes me is that Leinart who is supposed to be one of the most accurate passers, actually had a worse incomplete/completion ratio than Troy Smith, some one who is generally considered erratic.

Young is a pass first run second qb, except on draw or option plays. If you have time watch some film on his drop back passes, he scans the field and then makes a decision. A run first qb will not go through nearly as many progressions, and you would not have seen him throw to his tight end that many times. Young would have forced passes to his primary wr's, but he almost always found the soft spot or the open player. As for Leinart, Lets look at college football as a business, like college is for normal people. I go to college because I want a better job I want to make more money, etc. Now lets say after my junior year, I get offered the best possible job and I am offered the highest possible salary. What is my motivation to go back? Now add to the mix that unlike a regular student, college football players suffer career changing injuries at a staggering rate. Why would I stay? My answer is fear. Leinart is having the time of his life, he is big man on campus and hanging out with movie stars or with b-list celebs hehe. His team is vastly more talented than any other team in the Pac-10, and all he had to do was take 1 class dancing and show up on saturdays. Big fish, small pond. Not my type of player.