EvilMonkey

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Dec 17, 2012 -> 03:18 PM) No, like everything else in life, when something goes wrong, we don't blame the product, we blame the person making the mistake. If you own a gun and someone accidentally gets shot, it's because you f***ed up and made a mistake, just like running a red light and hitting something with your car. It's not the cars fault, it's your fault for operating the car the wrong way. If your seven year old gets ahold of the gun, you made a mistake. If you have a teenager with a problem, and he gets your gun, you made a mistake. That doesn't make guns anymore dangerous because some asshole somewhere shoots up a school or some negligent gun owner allowed his kids to get his guns. Jenks, not so sure about that, Read stories that involve an SUV in a crash, they almost always read 'A white SUV crashed thru a house today...', seemingly blaming the SUV.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 17, 2012 -> 03:10 PM) We don't get it described in vivid detail how someone's 7 year old found their unlocked gun and blew their friend's face off. We don't get it described in vivid detail how someone's teenager has a runin with a bully and then winds up deciding that's not going to happen again, hurting themselves or the other kid. And just how often does that happen? In 2009, according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, 66.9% of all homicides in the United States were perpetrated using a firearm. There were 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000. The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides, with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,224 firearm-related deaths in 2007 due to suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths. That would mean out of the 31k total gun death, 1240 were somethign other than suicide or homicide. not a big number, to be sure, although I will grant you is is a huge number to those effected.

Restriction can be made, but when they place an undo burden on using that right, like poll taxes and what some claim ID's are to voting, they are unconstitutional. Placing a tax on ammo high enough to make it unobtainable to all but the rich would be an undo burden. At some point, restricting the type can also be an undo burden.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 17, 2012 -> 02:43 PM) And I note again the complete lack of consideration of any other way that gun could be used. Never a consideration of an accident, or a suicide, or shooting the wrong person. The only thing that matters is the vigilante fantasy. You assume that. Could it be that I thought the other needs and wants out-weighed them? Most suicide people don't suddenly decide to do it when a gun is present. Those thoughts and desires are there anyway. Accidents happen.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Dec 17, 2012 -> 02:38 PM) That is why you alternate buckshot and slugs in a home defense shotgun -- the slugs can easily travel more than the distance of your house. And with 2 shots at that distance, you're going to kill whatever you were shooting at with a 12 gauge, even a 16. The biggest advantage of a shutgun in the home is you dont have to have very good aim...being woken up in the middle of the night, in the dark, during a home break in, getting your gun and loading it can be bad enough...now having to aim when your wits are dulled gives them about the same odds as it gives you. If you need to shoot at that kind of distance, you either live in a mansion, or you're doing something else entirely. I had some deer slugs, but just grabbed the gun and box closest to it in the safe. I usually used the slugs in my old over/under. Got my wife a shotgun with the pistol grip, they also make some low impact shells for that.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Dec 17, 2012 -> 02:26 PM) That's a crazy story. Seriously, just f***ed up, I read every word. I'm sure that shotgun you had made you feel safer, but s*** man, it'd have been 6 on 1. What if the 50 people down the street had guns instead of "a few bats and a big stick"? I realized that I was outnumbered, but it was better than nothing, and I figured the cops would show up eventually, even if I had to retreat to the basement myself. I did manage to move out 4 months after that. Got a buyer right away since I cut the price pretty cheap, but we wanted out. I also had a driveby happen behind me the day before I was scheduled to move. I ended up on the front lawn of some hose to get out of the way of the speeding car behind me, on the floor of my truck both crying and getting pissed that I was about to be shot the day BEFORE I got out of there. I am so glad to be out of that place. Sauk Village can just forget I ever lived there.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Dec 17, 2012 -> 02:12 PM) Yet you never had to use your gun or even threaten to use it and instead actually did rely on the police. And as you said, it was a shotgun, not a handgun or an 'assault' rifle*. You didn't need a personal arsenal, 10,000 rounds of ammunition and a 30-round magazine with more strapped to your chest. You were in fear because other people had guns. That's the same reason we'd like to restrict them--far too many guns are out there already, and it's trivially easy for anyone to get their hands on one, legally or not. By the way, I fully agree with your push-back against the naive "just move!" argument. I was going to edit that after that was when I got my handguns and rifle, realizing that my shotgun wasn't going to do much until they got closer. I have had that gun since I was 10. I still got shot at, and a few more steps I was opening fire.

In 1990 I moved to a far south suburb of Chicago, at the time a fairly nice place. I grew up there, and saw the town go thu ups and downs prior to my moving there. During the next 10 years, I saw my community go from good to bad to worse. Crime went up, my garage was broken into 3 times in a two month period, despite reenforcing the side door and bars on the window. In 2001 I had an opportunity to start up my own business. The neighborhood was bad, but not yet bad enough. So I did. My mistake. Within the next 2 years, the town got exponentially worse. In 2002 my car was broken into twice. Garage broken into again. Someone stole 3 hanging plants from the front lawn (!). And someone tried to break in. The back door was smashed, glass everywhere, frame messed up, but they didn't get in. I now couldn't move, as someone earlier in the thread said I should do, I was stuck here for a few more years. So I got my shotgun back from my dad and trained my wife to use it. I have a safe it was in, digital lock that can be opened in about 5 seconds with the combination. Fast forward to 2005. In those 3 years, I suffered through 4 or 5 more car break ins (lost track and only one car garage), my garage door smashed like someone ran into it with a car, and 2 more attempted home invasions, one when I was home. Then came the gang fight. Two houses across the street were fighting all day. I was on the porch since it was a nice day, and when the fight turned to blows, I called the police. They came, broke it up, went away. An hour later, fighting again, this time with additional family members on each side. One had a bat in hand. I called the cops again, who arrived just as fighting broke out. The separated them all and left, again. This happened a third time, I was getting to know the 911 operator real well by this point. They came and took back one person from each place to the station this time. I took the family to my parents and left to enjoy the day. A few hours later, as I am driving to my driveway, I see what appears to be at least 50 people down by the streets edge. We pull into the driveway and run into the house, and of course, call the police. While on the phone with the police, all hell breaks loose. Riot outside. there are a few bats that I can see and one person with a big stick. The cops show up, every cop in town it looked like, along with 3 cops from a neighboring town, 3 ambulances and a firetruck. The finally calm things down, take 4 to the hospital, one had a knife wound and there were several broken bones, and many people were maced. I can see several people looking at me, pointing my way, as if somehow me calling the cops on the idiots was the problem, instead of them wanting to kill each other. Cut to an hour later. We are on the front porch again, I go inside to get something to drink and moment later my wife comes running in with our sons, slammed the door, heading for the basement screaming 'they got guns'! So I locked the doors, grabbed my shotgun and went to a side window to look. Sure enough, there were 2 cars sitting outside my house, with about 6 people dresses like any stereotypical gangbanger you care to name. I am on the phone with the police, screaming at them to get over here NOW, and crouched with my shotgun, hoping I don't have to use it. One of the guys goes up to one of the houses and talks to someone while the others mill about with guns drawn for what seemed like an eternity but was probably only a minute. They started heading my way, looking around as they crossed the street, when I hear sirens. They did too apparently and jumped back in the cars and left, but not after one guy took a shot at my house, putting a hole in the front window and wall. Cops showed up about a minute after they left. Every day and night since then until I got out of that hellhole, that shotgun followed me wherever I went in my house. We didn't go outside along if we could help it. And I saved every damn penny and called in every favor I ever had to get out. Easier said than done, whoever the smartass was earlier in the thread that said 'just move'. yes, I am in a safer place now. At least it seems that way. But at one time my old home was a safe place as well. Not so much anymore. Have thugs loaded for war walking towards your house where your wife and kids are, then tell me you don't want guns, you'lll wait for the police. If so, you have way more faith than me. That is why I have guns, and will keep my guns.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Dec 17, 2012 -> 12:30 PM) What do you use your gun for? I am going target shooting after work with my boss.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Dec 17, 2012 -> 10:00 AM) 5 year old child: "But I WAAAANT it!" Grown Ass American: "But I WAAAAANT it!" pathetic. it is not your inalienable right to have a semi-automatic weapon. the founders who wrote the constitution had NO IDEA what a semi or automatic weapon was because they didn't exist. they wrote that as a member of a militia your right to keep and bear a weapon should not be infringed - referring to muskets and single shot rifles. you really don't think it deserves to be updated for 2012? how do you feel about leviticus? do you have a wife or girlfriend? when she's menstruating do you keep her outside and burn the sheets? if not, you're not following the laws of an ancient text to the letter! They also had no idea what the hell the internet or TV was. Why should you get free speech on that? Let the government have it. They were referring to local newspapers. And you can't pick and choose which ammendments you want to interpret literally and which you wan to be 'living'.

QUOTE (GoSox05 @ Dec 17, 2012 -> 09:58 AM) This hasn't been the case in other countries. I still consider Japan and U.K to be very free countries. read up on hate speech laws in the UK lately. Hell, they are even branding opposition parties as hate groups and trying to remove kids from families that register as belonging to that group. They are in a decent away from freedom.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Dec 17, 2012 -> 09:52 AM) 1) his mother bought them legally 2) there was nothing in his background that would have set off a red flag on his check. he had no criminal record. The mother herself screwed up here. he was removed from school because she didn't like the way the school was treating him. there are records of him having 'difficulty', and not in the learning sense. There is a person on record saying that he used to babysit the kid when he was 8 or 9 and was told by the mom to never turn his back on him. She knew even then he was a potential time bomb, but did nothing. There were signs, but the mother covered them up.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Dec 17, 2012 -> 09:51 AM) i would love, just once, for you to have an opinion that is supported by something other than sarcasm and snark. do you even KNOW why you hold the opinions you do? can you defend your positions without comparing them to completely unrelated subjects and creating false correlations? i don't think you can. The only defense needed is it is my right per the constitution to own a gun. You don't like guns and want to restrict that or outright take it away. If I want to legally by a Glock 19, I can do so. I should not have to prove to you, or anyone else, WHY I NEED it. I want it. I went thru background checks, waiting periods, have no criminal record, I got my gun. More paperwork than it took to vote. You want all these restriction on a right. Take away this one, and the next one becomes easier. Talking bad about the government? Well, we need to put a stop to that! You see it in dictatorships all the time, and even now in the UN where Russia, China and others want to seize control over what is on the internet as they are tired of their people seeing truth out there.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Dec 17, 2012 -> 09:49 AM) yeah i know. but comparing voting to owning a weapon that can kill 26 people in the span of a couple minutes... well... i just don't really think they're equatable Hamas got voted in in Gaza, look at all the deaths there. Elections have consequences.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Dec 17, 2012 -> 09:48 AM) I did not read through this entire thread, but my opinion on this is that there is no reason a regular citizen needs an assault rifle - none. Handguns, however, can have many personal uses and I believe fully in American's right to own them. That being said, I also think it is currently way too easy to acquire the license to do so and have no problems with stricter regulations and background checks before granted someone that privilege. You are aware that the current shooter did not acquire his guns legally, aren't you? So no matter what rules you had in place, he would have still got them. There ARE background checks, which stopped him from actually purchasing one himself.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Dec 17, 2012 -> 09:48 AM) can i use a cheeseburger to kill 20 children? Obesity is a national epidemic. Cheeseburgers kill people all the time! Come on. didn't you get that memo from Michelle? You shoudl have to justify why you want it, for the good of the country. if it saves just one life, it is worth it.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Dec 17, 2012 -> 09:41 AM) Listen, making it illegal to have semi-automatic guns and handguns would, without a doubt, lower the murder rate in this country. Though the number would obviously be much higher, even just a 1% decrease in the murder rate in this country would be worth it. If you disagree, then you are pro-murder. sem·i·au·to·mat·ic [ sèmmee àwtə máttik ] 1. reloading automatically: automatically ejecting a spent shell from a weapon's chamber and replacing it with another round each time the weapon is fired 2. partially automated: operated partly automatically and partly manually 3. semiautomatic weapon: a weapon that is semiautomatic. One trigger pull, one shot NOT a machine gun. NOT an automatic weapon. MOST handguns and rifles sold are semi-automatic. Identifying guns with that phrase is meant only to instill fear or cause confusion with people that don't know the difference.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Dec 17, 2012 -> 09:39 AM) Require guns to be securely stored and locked. Severely restrict or ban handguns such that no one has easy access to them. Restrict rifles based on the rate of fire. Introduce magazine size limits. Require a license-with-justification, not shall-issue permits. The justification is because it is my right and I want it. Who are you to decide that for me? Maybe you should need to justify that cheeseburger you want to order for lunch when they decide to regulate what you eat next.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Dec 17, 2012 -> 09:20 AM) i thought people like you didn't want to regulate our freedoms. voting is speech. you don't want to regulate the first amendment now do you? that would surely be inconsistent! Well, you seem to want to be selective in the right you regulate as well. If you feel they are good for the 2nd, why not the 1st?

QUOTE (Reddy @ Dec 17, 2012 -> 08:53 AM) Here's my view: *Regulations governing how guns are attained* Yes, I think you should be allowed to own a gun if you want to, but there needs to be a thorough background check, waiting period, psychiatric evaluation, and potentially even a registry that shows how many guns and what kind a person has/owns. Don't see what's wrong with all that - in fact, we do all of that when giving someone a driver's license, so why not with guns? Sounds great. Let's do this for voting as well.

QUOTE (Jake @ Dec 16, 2012 -> 01:38 PM) Comparing drug restrictions to gun restrictions is asinine. Guns aren't addictive and don't make the user physiologically high. You don't get withdrawals when you don't use your guns for too long. I thought guns made weaklings feel like Rambo?

QUOTE (Reddy @ Dec 16, 2012 -> 01:28 PM) and you're being intentionally obtuse (what new?) if you're thinking "but drugs DO kill kids all over the world!" drugs are something someone does to THEMSELVES. guns, well, they kill innocent children who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. The guy pulling the trigger killed them. The gun didn't just go off by itself.

QUOTE (Jake @ Dec 16, 2012 -> 01:07 PM) It's not that we need no guns, period. But I am firmly against resisting ANY restriction just because there is a fear that restrictions will never stop. That is not just a fear, it is reality.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 16, 2012 -> 10:28 AM) <!--quoteo(post=2737934:date=Dec 16, 2012 -> 07:58 AM:name=Alpha Dog)-->QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Dec 16, 2012 -> 07:58 AM) <!--quotec-->Is the answer to make them safer take away MY guns? Seriously, because some people are f*cked in the head, do you think the solution is to stop ME from having a gun? And Tex, your suicide story would have happened anyway. He didn't just decide to do it because he had access to a gun. That is a whole different bag of issue. I'd like to hear your honest opinion on gun policy. We all know this guy suffered from mental illness. Every single person that does one of these cowardly attacks is either sick or just plain stupid. Unfortunately, it's going to be hard to identify all these people and even if you did there's nothing you can do them to guarantee they won't do something crazy. What we can control is their ability to kill people in large quantities as best we can. What purpose does an assault rifle serve other than making some hillbilly feel powerful? It's not used for sport and it's not used for self-defense unless China decides to invade at some point. It's intended to be a killing machine and should not be allowed for purchase in this country. I don't even understand how they were ever legal in the first place. Banning them would be a small and simple way to possibly limit the amount of deaths in an attack like we saw this week. Obviously such a ban doesn't truly guarantee anyone safety, but I see no benefit to this country by allowing its citizens to purchase assault rifles. Do you disagree on this? The bolded part is the issue. You have parents all over who know their kids are dangerous, know they are a threat to themselves and others, but what can they do? Can the parents have them committed? Forced therapy or drugs? You run into civil rights issues then. But I guarantee that his mom KNEW he was capable of this. There is a slippery slope on everything. Start committing people with violent tendencies, then who decides who is violent or not? What would prevent some politicians or whoever from gaming the system and locking up people for other reasons, and justifying it with that? Same for guns. Most gun owners will tell you they have no issues with waiting periods, FOID cards, even restrictions on some high powered weapons. but they KNOW, and you know it too, that once any more restrictions get in place, it is just a foothold inviting more. next they start banning guns because the 'look' dangerous (assault weapons ban), or deciding that you do't need a 16 shot magazine, 10 is more than enough. OMG, he had a semi-automatic weapon! Bolt action has been out of style for a long time and is a pain in the ass. And on and on. Enforce the laws that exist. Lock up the people at gun shows that skirt the rules and sell under the table. Keep violent people in prison where they belong. get mental help to those that need it. You can't protect people from everything.

QUOTE (Tex @ Dec 16, 2012 -> 06:54 AM) After 9/11, to make planes safer we banned liquid soap and nail files because they are too dangerous. But to make theaters, schools, shopping malls, and damn well every other public place safer is more guns? Really? I just wish we could sweep away the bull s*** and have a national debate on what should, and what should not, be allowed. The world has changed since the original Constitution was *changed* with the 2nd Amendment. We now have a very large standing army to protect us. We now have supermarkets with lots of meat. We have gone from weapons that could be reloaded and shot once every 60 or 90 seconds to shots per second. We've gone from a single round in the gun to large capacity clips. We've improved the accuracy from 25 yards to half a mile. Certainly the boys who wrote the changes that were approved in 1791 would have had different ideas based on today's facts about armies and weaponry. Let's stop pretending that a gun is the same as a knife, bat, or pencil. Come back when you killed a deer with a baseball bat. A gun is one damn fine killing machine. They are incredible tools, with awesome capabilities. They are fun to shoot. But better than a Charles Atlas workout, they turn cowards into wanna be Rambos, they allow someone to extract violence from a distance. They can be used in moments, they don't take many steps like bombs or cyanide (couple emails I received showing how similar things are). I've told the story before, I made the decision when my kids were small to not have a gun readily available in my home for protection. To be ready, it needs to be easily accessible, loaded, and probably without a safety. You'll only have seconds. That is a recipe for disaster. But my attitude was shaped when I was in H.S. A neighbor of my girlfriend shot himself with his parent's gun. They said all the things that parents say who do have guns around "we taught him to respect it","he knew how to safely handle it", "we went to the range all the time", it didn't seem depressed". Now that my kids are older and mentally healthy, I keep a gun or two around. I don't need a M-16, I don't need high capacity clips, I don't need 10,000 rounds stored in a bunker. Is the answer to make them safer take away MY guns? Seriously, because some people are f*cked in the head, do you think the solution is to stop ME from having a gun? And Tex, your suicide story would have happened anyway. He didn't just decide to do it because he had access to a gun. That is a whole different bag of issue.