EvilMonkey

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Aug 7, 2012 -> 11:17 AM) My argument against the death penalty is that humans are imperfect and I wont be associated with the killing of an innocent human. How does that relate at all to whether or not motivation should be taken into account when giving a penalty. Because when the crime is black on white, or Muslum against Jew, police always tiptoe around saying it was/could be a hate crime. Maj. Nidal shoots up an army base because he hates non muslims, it gets called 'workplace violence', not a hate crime, or terrorism. It isn't applied evenly, in any stretch of the imagination, at all. 'Hate' isn't just whitey hating xxx.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Aug 7, 2012 -> 12:12 PM) Yes, it is true. Occupy is a complete disaster, and a failure in every regard. Anyone that says otherwise is simply blind and refuses to see things as they actually are. If it accomplished, please...enlighten me. Tell us all exactly what it accomplished. This should be hilarious. Dude, even I can tell you the answer to that one. It raised AWARENESS. Because thgat trumps all. Awareness that slackers are still living in mom's basement wioth no jobs due to crappy college degrees and/or no desire to start work at the bottom. Awareness that there is a whole bunch of people that feel the world owes them an ipad or gormet meals just because. It also accomplished double digit deaths, rapes and hundreds of arrests. Oh, and huge costs to the actual working people who pay taxes to clean up their mess after they left/were kicked out of the various parks and for police overtime.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 10:48 PM) i dont hate people who don't think like i do. i hate people who choose to be ignorant in spite of having the actual facts staring them in the face. i hate people who think facts are "opinions". i hate people who are bigots. i hate people who ignore logic. and I apologize if I don't respond in novels like some posters on this board. I've got more important things to do. So I am a bigot. Got it.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 10:33 PM) that's fine, i don't want your respect, since it would diminish the word. Yeah, you just want the world to think like you and you hate on all that don't. No probs.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 10:19 PM) Alpha just doesn't know what the f*** he's talking about. let him be ignorant. he doesn't WANT not to be. Nothing you can do. Soxbadger replied with facts and some things to try and support his argument. You replied with wanting to raise awareness. I respect his arguments here, yours, not so much.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 10:11 PM) Are you seriously taking this position? You are always so anti-govt, yet you are fine with conspiracy, which is legitimately one of the most controversial tools of the US govt. Wow, that is impossible to believe. Think about what you are saying: TALKED TO SOMEONE ABOUT KILLING YOUR WIFE That is the epitome of THOUGHT CRIME. The person did nothing but THINK ABOUT IT. They didnt even attack her. Now lets say they bought a knife at the store, is that a substantial act towards a felony (I think thats the requirement for conspiracy)? Maybe they just needed a knife. And buying bombs should be illegal in and of itself. Trying to purchase bombs (an actual criminal act) can be punished. Can I arrest anyone who buys a gun, because the only reason you buy a gun is to shoot someone, and that likely could be a felony? Sound logic. Im just blown away. Where did I say I was OK with that? And by talking to someone about killing your wife, I meant talking to someone about killing your wife FOR YOU. Forgot to add that.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 10:01 PM) How are drawing up plans to commit a crime an actionable offense? A crime is something that happens, not something that you thought maybe could happen. Conspiracy is absolutely thought crime, because you are taking away the actionable offense. How do you know the person would actually do it? You dont, hence its thought crime. You still have to have done SOMETHING. Talked to someone about killing your wife, bought bomb parts online after posting you wanted to kill XXX and so on. They get terrorists on that for conspiracy after they buy (fake) bombs from undercover officers. So they DID something, not just woke up one day and said to themselves 'i wanna blow up a bridge today'.

Damn internet going so slow, by the time I answer, there are 3 or 4 more replies.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 09:50 PM) premeditated murder. /end discussion. you lose. You could try Conspiracy, but even there you are usually committing some sort of actionable offense, not just thinking about it.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 09:50 PM) premeditated murder. /end discussion. you lose. Still just one charge. Not murder, and oh, since you hated him, we'll charge you for that too.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 09:39 PM) yes he is. pretty sick, huh? You want to arrest someone for thought. THAT is sick.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 09:36 PM) Are you really against raising awareness about racism?! Do you really think there is a person alive that doesn't know what racism is and that it exists? Geeze, we hear about it with every phantom code phrase the media makes up when anyone talks about Obama. Or anytime anyone dare opposes a mosque in their neighborhood. Or anytime someone decides they dont like illegal immigration.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 08:47 PM) Ended up buying a Ford Focus hatchback, with all the pkgs but the parking assist. Looks nice.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 09:16 PM) Because hate is a motive, and motive can be a factor in how harsh the penalties are. Are you arguing that it shouldnt be more of a penalty, or that its duplicative as a law and therefore unnecessary? Bad thought is already punished. Murder 1 v Murder 2. Intentional arson versus non-intentional. If I purposefully burnt down a school, shouldnt I be punished more than if I accidentally burnt down a school? I really dont know where you are going with this. You are charged with murder one or murder 2. Not murder, and a hate crime. The addition of hate crime does nothing to make the situation any better for anyone.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 09:13 PM) draw AWARENESS to it as a NATIONAL ISSUE. you're just ... wow. Next you are gonna break out "it's for the children...." Pass a law to raise awareness. And yes, I know they have been around, I have always thought they were stupid.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 09:06 PM) It penalizes bad behavior, the purpose of criminal law? What is the purpose of any law? So you are punishing bad thought. Great.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 09:05 PM) Motive is already a factor, acting like this is revolutionary is hilarious. 50% of criminal prosecution is "mens rea" aka guilty mind, so should motive not be an element of criminal prosecution? It shouldnt matter what reason I killed someone, for example self-defense, because I wouldnt want the govt to read my thoughts. He shot and killed people. There are laws against that. He hated people. There are not laws against that. His 'hate' can be used to determine a motive, but why should his thoughts mean an additional crime?

QUOTE (Reddy @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 08:48 PM) i know. it's like this country took a 50 year jump back in time the last year or so So you want to live in a Tom Cruise movie and arrest people for thought crimes now, eh? Awesome.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 08:43 PM) if it's racially/ethnically charged that means there's something WRONG in our national dialogue. hate crimes come from LEARNED beliefs. they had to learn them from somewhere. And charging someone with a hate crime does WHAT!? Besides making you feel good.

QUOTE (Swingandalongonetoleft @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 07:46 PM) The one about the #8 pick that bats .203 I'm not sure what the confusion with hate crime/non-hate crime is. If there are clear indications that race/religion/sexual orientation etc. played a role in the crime, it's a hate crime. If it was a random act targeting whoever happens to be in the way, it's not. This particular shooting is very clearly a hate crime, while the Colorado theater shooting is not. Just because a victim is a certain religion or ethnicity doesn't automatically make it a hate crime. Some crimes just wouldn't have happened if it weren't for those afore-mentioned qualifiers. So why is a hate crime any worse than a regular one? Again, are they more dead because he called them racial names when he shot them? He is allowed to hate them, he isn't allowed to kill them. You can't lock people up for thier thoughts, or you might as well put the big screen in your apartment for big brother to watch over you right now.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 07:39 PM) sometimes i doubt whether or not you're a human being. Tell me what is the advantage or use of labeling this a hate crime. what does it do? does it make anyone undead? does it make them hurt less? It does nothing except to allieve some liberal guilt over whoever the perp was (usually white, if it is labeled a hate crime). So tell me, what is the whole point of hate crime laws? Really. And get off your high horse and answer with your head out of ass and use some facts, because emotion just doesn't win. Because I sometimes I doubt you can argue any point without trying to have your 'feelings' as the fact that decides it for you.

QUOTE (GoodAsGould @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 06:11 PM) Wow, this is the first time I've heard someone argue against having hate crimes.... well first time hearing it from someone who wasn't part of a hate group. Every time something bad happens to a gay guy, or a Muslum, or whoever, it isn't always because they are gay, or Muslim. Sometimes they are just assholes, or sometimes just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Seriously, what does the addition of hate crimes add to anything?

So does this mean that when Romney wins the White House that the Republicans can sic the IRS on George Soros and every other large Obama donor? I mean if Obama can do it...... http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/na...0,2898540.story

QUOTE (Reddy @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 05:36 PM) yep, go ahead and trivialize hate crimes. hope you feel good about yourself! Yes, because the thought of it is stupid. Additional punishment because of how you 'thought' about somneone. They are still just as dead, just as injured, just as aggrieved. But the great thought ppolice just wanna add that little bit extra in there to make some people feel better. You know what, he is allowed to hate people. You can't control his thoughts how ever much you and I may hate them. Punish his actions.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 02:03 PM) There is nothing the govt can do, there are costs when you live in a free society, this is one of them. Its already illegal to kill people, you cant make it more illegal. Sure you can! Make it a hate crime!