Y2HH

QUOTE (Jake @ Jan 21, 2013 -> 11:31 AM) Clif Builder Bar Choco Mint is delicious These are my go-to bars when I go hiking. I always carry some of them.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 21, 2013 -> 11:03 AM) They don't want their jobs to go to China, and they don't want to make Chinese-level wages. Let them eat cake, I guess.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Jan 21, 2013 -> 10:56 AM) or we don't do it (like me) and also don't b**** about life being unfair. I picked a ridiculous field to want to work in (performing) so I made my bed, and I'll sleep in it living paycheck to paycheck. That's exactly it...but you accepted the possible -- and highly probable -- consequences of that choice. A lot of people "chase the dream" only they don't want to accept the fact that the odds are stacked against them. Not to mention, there are a lot of people in hollywood that made it big, only it took them 30 years to get there...and for that 30 years, they struggled every day for the eventual payoff that most people look at and say it was handed to them now that they're living large. I'll admit it...I did the opposite. I didn't chase my dream. I liked IT work, I didn't love it, but I liked it...I really love technology, but not really the technology I work with. But it wasn't my "dream job". My actual dream job was to be a US Forest Service Ranger...don't ask why, I can't explain it. The reason I didn't go after that dream was because I knew what it meant...it meant struggling and being paid a low wage to "do what I love". I'd rather make money doing what I like.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 21, 2013 -> 10:51 AM) I don't know that "many kids" qualify for unemployment insurance. I still don't see any support for the idea that there's millions of lazy ass-sitters and all of these open positions that they could have if we successfully lecture them about responsibility, though. The point is, sometimes we have to accept that life is going to be hard for a temporary amount of time, and we may not like having to accept working two jobs to make ends meet, but that's life. We do it anyway. OR, we don't do it and b**** about life being unfair and hard and how you coulda' been a contender.

Right. And I hated working for 15$ a hour back in the day when I knew more about IT than half the people working at the company I worked for, who were making 45k+ a year, not to mention I had a bachelors degree on top of it...and most of them had no degree at all. That's life.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 21, 2013 -> 10:29 AM) But iron and fiber! Lick a rusty pipe and eat a twig with that snickers.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 21, 2013 -> 10:34 AM) And jobs that pay competitive wages for their positions don't go complaining to the newspaper about how people aren't applying for them. That's their businesses problem then, isn't it? If they refuse to pay a competitive wage, they won't get workers, and they'll go bankrupt. That's life, a two way street.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 21, 2013 -> 10:29 AM) This is basic S&D. If they were offering $50/hour (for extreme example), there would be lines of people out the door. Jobs that pay 50$ an hour don't have lines of people out the door...or they wouldn't be paying 50$ an hour.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 21, 2013 -> 10:19 AM) That doesn't seem like a "personal responsibility" thing. They want skilled, trained labor for $12/hour. He said the "students" are starting at 12$ an hour. STUDENTS. As in, those are entry level jobs. That's about what an entry level job is worth in manufacturing.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jan 21, 2013 -> 10:03 AM) I'd love to get some ideas for meals in this thread. One of my favorite snacks to make: English muffin pizzas Take halves of whole wheat english muffins, put on pizza sauce (store or homemade), sprinkle mozzarella/romano, and add some form of protein (grilled chicken, turkey pepperoni, or turkey italian sausage). Bake in over/toaster over until golden brown. Usually about 100 calories per muffin half, tastes really good (if spiced right), satisfies cravings and is decently filling for a snack. I'd much rather eat something like this compared to a near 200 calorie granola bar. Granola bars are one of the biggest lies ever sold to people as health food. Even intelligent and otherwise healthy people never bother to look at the fact that most granola bars are about equal to eating a snickers bar in terms of calories, fat and sugar.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 21, 2013 -> 10:09 AM) My brother and my bro-in-law, sort of, they're both working to get music careers off the ground and live at home working odd jobs. I don't know that this represents a 'problem' that needs to be addressed on a societal level, though. It doesn't...given their choice of career, they're looking at a hard road with the potential for a massive payoff, and it seems that their willingness to accept doing odd jobs and live at home shows that they understand that and are willing to accept that trade off for the possibility of being able to live their dream. In turn, they also accept the minute odds of making it in that profession where that profession alone can carry them financially. That's called sacrifice. And I have absolutely nothing against that. What I would have something against is if those same people refused to work because they were holding out to open for Aerosmith, because they're the greatest musicians in the world and everyone should recognize that. The point is, depending on what you choose to do...there are trade offs...some people want to shoot for the stars but they don't want to accept the trade off of doing so.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 21, 2013 -> 10:06 AM) No, but you're pretending it's an important point, that it's somehow an indictment of this generation of people and something that never happened in society before these wussies came along. Actually, no, I never said anything of the sort. But thanks for trying.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 21, 2013 -> 10:06 AM) Considering that, unlike every recession since the depression, we allowed a whole large chunk of people's unemployment benefits to dry up before the return of anything resembling full employment...if people are sitting at home unemployed in this recession and they actually received unemployment benefits...those are long gone. Those ended, for that group, 2 years ago. "We" didn't allow anything. We extended unemployment benefits to durations never before seen and they still lapsed for some. ...and not everyone lost their job at the same time.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 21, 2013 -> 10:04 AM) And do you know how many 20somethings I can name who are working their asses off in school or in positions where they are way underpaid because that's all that they could get? I bet a few...but that wasn't the question now was it?

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 21, 2013 -> 10:02 AM) Cite/source? Because people who can find jobs they don't want like to admit it... This can't be cited or sourced because if they admitted it, they'd lose their unemployment benefits.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 21, 2013 -> 10:01 AM) I am skeptical that there's a meaningful number of people sitting on their asses trying to get their "dream job" and don't take any other work. Don't be. I bet every last person here knows a 20 something that's not working BECAUSE they can't find the job THEY WANT. They can find jobs...just not the exact job or pay they're looking for...so they CHOOSE to not work instead. I'm one person and I can produce 5 people I know doing this right now. I'd bet you could name a few yourself...and so can everyone else here. So please, let's not pretend otherwise.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 21, 2013 -> 09:58 AM) Is this a situation that actually represents a meaningful number of people? I think it does.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 21, 2013 -> 09:51 AM) 1. What gets solved by the lecture about how people need to buck up and take more responsibility? 2. It's worth pointing out this graph...of job openings versus applicants, to note that thanks to the destruction of the economy, we still have more than 2x as many applicants per job as there was before the implosion. Job opportunities do exist...but you can have a ton of great skills, marketable ones, and still have extreme difficulty in this economy. And if you look out your window right now, the sky is blue.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 21, 2013 -> 09:38 AM) If poverty really is the result of individual moral failings, then that's an accurate-but-critical portrayal of what's been said repeatedly in this thread. If you're going to attribute poverty to a lack of personal responsibility, you're just saying "lazy poors" in nicer language. At least, that's my view of things. I don't know what you're saying here. Ceaselessly ignoring the structural causes of poverty and talking only about "personal responsibility" means you're not focusing on the actual problems that need to be addressed. Especially when plenty of poor people are hard-working and responsible. That's the thing...we aren't attributing ALL poverty to lack of personal responsibility. We are ONLY talking about that which is caused by lack of personal responsibility in today's society. I, at least, am talking about a micro level component here, and you are expanding it to a very macro level. Nothing ever gets solved by trying to take a macro level look at something...not everyone has the same opportunities, not everyone has the same station in life. This post went from my discussing job opportunities with people and trying to enter that market with a useful skillset to somehow becoming something of a discussion of poverty...I wasn't discussing poverty in the first place. I was merely discussing job opportunities...and the fact that they exist IF you do something the world needs.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 21, 2013 -> 09:05 AM) Why can't it be both individual and societal and, maybe more importantly, nothing to do with "blame" at all? It already is both individual and societal. The problem is, lately, it's leaning more toward society because we are busy devaluing personal responsibility through incredibly s***ty parenting...or total lack thereof.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 21, 2013 -> 08:58 AM) Every system has problems, yeah, that doesn't mean you don't work to correct or fix them. Not sure where you'd get "1984" from that, though. That was a system with rigid class structures based on a totalitarian government; reducing class, race, gender etc. socioeconomic discrepancies doesn't really require anything like that. My point is, you don't have have to "rig" the system to "de-rig" unearned opportunity from others. Those who receive unearned opportunity eventually squander it on their own. But rigging one system to de-rig another, especially when it's unnecessary, is an absurd idea to me. The proverb three generations shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves exists for a reason...and while sometimes it takes more or less than the three generations, it eventually happens. Those who gain things without having to earn them tend to squander them rather quickly. In all cultures.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 21, 2013 -> 08:48 AM) You can also work to understand and de-rig the system so that fewer people are dealt unearned s*** or unearned privilege. Someone DID earn it, even if it was earned "for them". I'd prefer to NOT live in a system that takes that away...yes, even from people like Paris Hilton. Believe me, time will take care of that on it's own...we don't need a "system" to take it away from people like Paris Hilton...when she'll give it away on her own. Three generations shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves. I have some news for you, every system is rigged, some more so than others. But you can take your 1984 system and stuff it. Not interested. I'd rather live in the rigged system we have now than the sterile one you're wishing you had.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 21, 2013 -> 08:42 AM) Like I said earlier...If you're building a bridge...you don't decide "If I put a net beneath it, some people might jump just to see what it's like" and decide you're not putting up a safety net. A good safety net is going to always have freeloaders. You can take steps to minimize it, and you should. Work requirements for TANF (which, yes, exist). etc. But you still put the net there, because you're better off if anyone who falls...gets caught before impact. Agreed.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 21, 2013 -> 08:39 AM) It's easier to imagine that everyone is a "wussy" who made bad choices if they're in a s***ty spot in life than to actually try to dig down and understand social structures, opportunities, privileges, generational poverty, etc. and that the experiences of immigrants from 50+ years ago are relevant to today's opportunities for the poor and middle class. There's nothing wrong with making the most of the opportunities you've been presented with. It's just that, for a lot of people, those opportunities are still pretty s***. And because the path to those opportunities is much more perilous, it's much easier to have one minor misstep result in them being squandered. I'm not saying that people are "wussys" because they were dealt a bad hand, either. But I will say it's better to be dealt a bad hand in this country than it is in many others. For some, life will be easy street...take for example, a person like Paris Hilton. In comparison to her, my life was hell trying to get from there to here. I worked 3 jobs, went to school full time, and lived with my parents. For someone else, MY life was easy street. So, you can throw your hands up, claim the system is rigged and give up...and make excuses all along the road to failure...or you can accept that s***ty hand you were dealt, make the best of it, and TRY to stack the deck a little for your kids, so the hand they're dealt will be just a little better than the one you had to deal with.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 21, 2013 -> 08:37 AM) Very true. But you know another thing that also makes us better people and makes us a better country? When people squander opportunities...they can get more. Oh sure it can cost them dearly, and it does so. Sometimes people go pretty far down the rabbit hole before they come back. Sometimes people are lost forever down it. But we're all better off when a person can spend 20 years as an addict, as a lost soul, and still come back and become a productive member of society once they deal with their demons. Or when a person who decides to live with his or her friends after college is given the chance to figure out what is important to them. That's not making excuses. That's life. And it is not an indictment of the American system, it's not making people wussies, it is a strength. Well, we agree on that. I like living in a country that will help you back onto your feet when you need it, or a country that affords our young people the opportunity "to find themselves and what they want out of life", because if they were born in the wrong country, there is no such opportunity for anything like that. If used properly, the system can be your shoulder to lean on when you need it most. Unfortunately, that shoulder can also become your ability to "wuss your way out", and instead of trying to get back onto your feet...simply leaning on it, because it's easier than the alternative.