Y2HH

Ok, I see we are still banging this drum. It seems to me that has become about proclaiming, "my side was right", at this point...but offering nothing of substance beyond that. These last few posts highlight exactly what I'm talking about. Congratulations, you've won bragging rights. It's time to move on to solutions, now, no? We get it, 30 quadrillion papers have peer reviewed, only 13 of those peer reviewed disagree with some minor aspects of climate change. Now, what do we actually do about it? More importantly, can it be done in a feasible way? I can pose solutions that are easy to talk about, but impossible to implement, too...but they solve nothing. First and foremost, people need to accept the word 'global' in this climate change discussion, and one country will not be able to make so much as a dent on it's own...everyone the world over has to not only agree on the science, but implement the same restrictions and safeguards, otherwise we're just wasting everyone's time. For the interest of conversation, let's move beyond the fact that AGW exists...and let's hear some solutions. This is the point where I expect to start hearing crickets chirping, or a few of you sound off and suggestions that are pure fantasy and could/would never get implemented for a multitude of reasons, be they political or otherwise. So, let's hear some realistic solutions.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Dec 1, 2012 -> 05:22 PM) idk about most government spending be direct transfers like that The point still stands. It was a relatives who did earn it, paid taxes on it, and saved it so it could be passed down to the person of their choice. After all, they paid taxes on it already, probably more than once, so what they do with it, including handing it down to a child or relative, is their business, not yours and not the governments (so long as they're not doing anything illegal with it). As far as you and the government are concerned, you've already received your share of that money. And when the people who inherit it, start to spend it, it will surely get taxed again and again. No, you and others obviously didn't receive direct payments, but you did benefit on it via the roads or services it helped build. Fostering a society that forces spending and discourages saving (in case you die) is absurd, especially when were talking about money that's already been taxed.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Nov 30, 2012 -> 09:51 AM) Depends on the union, of course. This is where you're wrong. It doesn't depend on the union. It depends on the individual. Every union has it's share of s***ty workers, just as every union has it's share of excellent workers...workers that don't care about how shoddy of a job they do, so long as it's "good enough", because what's it matter? They're going to get the same raise as everyone else...they're hard to fire, etc... I think, specifically, this is my problem with most unions. Their collective bargaining where everyone gets the same raise or pay decrease in times of concessions. I don't care what times we are in, be they good or bad, there are people that deserve raises, and people that don't. The same applies in tougher times when people are taking pay cuts...there are people that don't deserve to get them. Unions, I feel, by and large, breed a culture of complacence. This attitude bred by unions bothers me. I see it throughout family gatherings from almost everyone that's in a union.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 30, 2012 -> 09:42 AM) No...but if there's a limit to how low you can reduce your prices (which, unless you're building a Palazzo on Michigan Avenue sometime soon)...you are left with the options of taking advantage of the marketplace you do have (selling Chicago, i.e. like the Auto show) or offering a higher quality product. Which they didn't do. Crappier quality product at a higher price. I don't know why people still relate union work with quality, either. It's simply not true anymore.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 30, 2012 -> 09:38 AM) And you get to ignore the actual hotel/city conditions and tourism completely, because every negative thing ever must be 100% the fault of the unions. I'm not saying that didn't help. It most assuredly did. But you don't combat the falling prices elsewhere by raising your own here.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Nov 30, 2012 -> 09:35 AM) f*** unions for not eagerly joining the race to the bottom Your absolutely right, and in their haste to not race to the boom, all they did was get to the bottom first.

The point you and other union lovers are ignoring here is this. Orlando and Vegas became price competitive. They went out of their way to create availability and lower prices to attract conventions, because they realize the business it generates outside of the convention itself... ...and what did Chicago do? Raised it's prices. Raised it's requirements as to how many people you have to staff, etc. Rather than trying to compete, they actually went against the grain and added incentives to NOT have conventions here. It was a smart tactic. Only it was dumb.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 30, 2012 -> 09:29 AM) So wait, the Unions in Chicago had no power 10 years ago and they gained all that power in 10 years to sabotage the convention industry? Well that's straight amazing. Not what I said at all...but you raise an interesting point. It shows that unions don't want to compete...and they're purpose has become to drive prices up, not down. It's not that Chicago unions gained some sort of mystical power in the past 10 years, what it does, however, is show they're oblivious to reality. Why should their lower their prices? That attitude that they won't lose business no matter what is what happened to Chicago conventions.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 30, 2012 -> 09:28 AM) When the point is "you guys will reflexively blame unions for everything you don't like and find a way to look past every other economic reality", I think your saying that Las Vegas hasn't improved as a convention destination massively in the past 20 years and ignoring the fact that it has 5x the number of hotel rooms available as chicago pretty well illustrates it. The flee from Chicago convention centers didn't happen until the mid 2000s. Also, I'm not saying you don't have a point, you do...Vegas could have simply priced Chicago out with their new availability...but that said, it wasn't hard to price Chicago out when they require you to hire a certain number of electricians, plumbers, etc...when your actual requirements are far less than they force you to hire. This is, again, what protectionism gets you.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 30, 2012 -> 09:22 AM) I think I can literally stop reading when you say that Las Vegas didn't become "Hotel heavy" over the past 20 years. 20 years ago the Mirage opened. Since that time, basically the entire strip has been rebuilt, massively increasing the availability of hotel rooms...and oh yeah, the LV convention center underwent a major renovation to expand space in 1990, and another in 1998. Again, 20 years ago Vegas was still hotel heavy, before it was rebuilt, before the Mirage. So again, your point is rendered moot. Even allowing you to make this ridiculous point. Chicago was a booming convention town as little as 10 years ago. So, what exactly happened in the past 10 years? Vegas was already rebuilt...Vegas already had huge convention centers...but people continued coming here. Why? And why did they suddenly stop in the 2000's? Did they suddenly realize Vegas had hotel rooms? You're ridiculous.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 29, 2012 -> 06:13 PM) Anywho, I just finished up the paper I needed to review, so time for a good rant. I like how it's just reflexively "Unions" why conventions might go to Orlando and Las Vegas. Yup, Unions. No consideration is given, of course, to the fact that those 2 cities have substantial hotel advantages, produced in one case through the fact that one has a clear on-season and an off-season for tourism, which would generate a substantial portion of the year when hotels aren't booked solid and could be available cheaply...and the other which winds up having the price of the hotels subsidized through the fact that the non-geologists blow money in the city. On top of that, Chicago proper has only about 30k hotel rooms according to its olympics application (100k in the metro area), whereas Vegas you're talking 150k just in the city. Chicago doesn't have those advantages. When you host a convention in Chicago, you're not hosting a convention in a place you can go to cheaply, you're hosting a convention there because you want access to the Chicago market and you want to somehow take advantage of that market. That of course, is all the fault of the unions. And re: the electrician. Now, I'm willing to grant that Chicago is unusually corrupt and there's probably a backroom deal or 17 signed somewhere along the line to grease the skids...but on the other side can anyone think of a reason why a large major city might want to have some decently high quality regulation and training of the people who are allowed to do even small electrical projects in the city? Yes, it's going to raise the costs. But the city also has a keen interest in the stability of its own electrical systems, and also has a huge interest in electrical safety, as fires in an urban environment are hugely threatening to lives and property. And Chicago just happens to have a small history involving fire. Not to mention other elemental extremes. So yes, Chicago is probably particularly corrupt and I'd be happy to discuss how specific elements of deregulation could help improve the city's economy...but don't tell me that the city ought to allow just any contractor to work on the electrical systems in the city. A city ought to make sure that people who are doing electrical work in the downtown area are certified on their local systems and do double and triple checks and follow city-wide standardized procedures to the letter. And yes, that is a burdensome regulation that costs businesses substantial amounts of money...but fire does too. And blackouts do too. Oh, and one more...in one of my less exciting excursions through someone's anti-union story, here's the actual regulations from the City of Chicago regarding the use of PVC pipe: So, the City does allow PVC pipes. For the very largest pipe sizes, >24 inch, you are correct that clay is required, but this is not unusual for the largest drains, and frankly, after going through the regulations for other states, Chicago's piping regulations aren't unusually stringent (and it's also not like Chicago has had any sort of recent memory issue with pipes bursting and floods). Crumbling, old clay pipes...that can certainly be an issue...but now we're talking about an issue of lack of upkeep and trying to make a 50 year system last 150 years, like we do with so many other bits of our infrastructure in this country. I disagree with your points for a few reasons... Now it's my turn to rant against your rant. 1) Those piping regulations are pure protectionism. Period. And reading those regulations, they hardly make sense to anyone that isn't a lawyer, and they word them like that on purpose. I'll take your word for it when you say the city allows PVC for smaller pipes, but that's pretty meaningless, since people can just as easily use copper for those (like I did). The big pipes are the pipes you WANT to be PVC, not clay...these are the pipes that almost always cause drain/sewer problems for various reasons, most of which because they can crack/break/crumble and require multiple repairs far before 50 years. PVC is also much harder to clog, because there are less "elbows/connections" involved. Most of these repairs shouldn't be necessary, and PVC would make them stronger, last longer, and stay cleaner. But I guess union sewer guys need job protection! Clay sucks in comparison to PVC for any size drain, in every regard. 2) The unions DID, in fact, cause the conventions to flee Chicago, as this was once a huge area for conventions, including CES,...Las Vegas didn't just suddenly become "hotel heavy" in the last 20 years, so the hotel/space excuse doesn't even make sense. Las Vegas always had the hotels. Las Vegas always had the gambling. I'm pointing this out because you seem to be ignoring it for the sake of making a point that Las Vegas is more attractive because of things they've always offered. The fact is, Chicago has become less attractive because of how expensive it is to have a convention here, not because there are no hotels. When you want to have a convention and you need 10 electricians, but the contract requires you have hire and pay 50, even if you don't need nearly that many...well, that's the problem. The problem is not, however, hotel space. 3) Union workers were, at one time, said to be more trained and experienced than non union workers...and the Union name/brand was somewhat of an assurance to quality work. This no longer applies. Union work is often shoddier than non union work these days...anyone that's ever dealt with a contractor or having a home built could tell you this. Yes, there are union members that are just as experienced and offer just as high quality work, but it's no longer something the brand name carries with it. While it was once synonymous with quality, it no longer is. Now it's just synonymous with the fact you'll be paying way more for the same quality you could get elsewhere. And no, I'm not saying all unions are the same, or that all unions are bad. I'm saying that over time, a lot of this negative attitude toward unions was created by and brought upon themselves. You may be right about Chicago, though, as it's the only City I have experience with unions in...perhaps things are far better with unions elsewhere. When I'm talking about them, I'm talking specifically about Chicago.

QUOTE (Harry Chappas @ Nov 29, 2012 -> 01:40 PM) People go apes*** over free s***, no matter what it is. example #1 Chevy Pride Crew s***ty t-shirt giveaway. They're going ape s*** for stuff they're paying for in this case. And I don't think I've ever seen anyone care about the chevy pride crew at games I was at. heh

QUOTE (Jake @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 01:58 PM) You act like they made rules like that out of spite. It's always a response to an abuse. It's a vicious cycle. They made these rules out of protectionism, and it drives prices up, not down. While these examples are all anecdotal, most people who work in an office that has union and non-union employees has experienced something like this. Again, these types of practices drive prices up via a form of forced non-competition. It's bulls***. And it's why I hate MOST modern unions. Here is another example -- in the City of Chicago -- any underground piping is supposed to be clay tile, as if this was 1930. Not PVC...and why? Because PVC is airtight, and lasts almost forever. Clay tile, however, leaks, breaks, can be invaded by tree roots, and is outdated technology they force you to use in a legal sense BECAUSE it protects the fact that they'll be necessary to fix it in the future. This type of protectionism is f***ing bulls***. And no union member on this board will ever convince me otherwise.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Nov 27, 2012 -> 08:37 PM) ^American views of labor in a nutshell Wrong. Not American views of labor in a nutshell. American views of labor from people who have had to deal with unions, however, absolutely. Like at a company I may work for now or have once worked for...if a power cord happens to not be plugged in, don't touch it...because it's a union electricians job. You're supposed to call them to come up to your office and plug it back in for you. If you do, they have the option to file a complaint which can lead to termination for breaking union labor agreements with the business. Like I said, s*** like this brings this opinion of them on themselves.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Nov 27, 2012 -> 08:18 PM) Unions get reflexively blamed for everything any time something goes wrong. Ignoring the fact that there's 2 sides in negotiations. It's always the union. What happened is irrelevant, the union should've taken whatever s***ty deal was offered no matter how bad it was and be grateful anybody wanted to employ them. ...and unions brought that opinion of them on themselves over time. Not saying it's right, just saying they helped perpetuate the situation they find themselves in now.

QUOTE (Iwritecode @ Nov 27, 2012 -> 11:15 AM) 4 hours is round-trip. About 90 miles each way. On the way in I can cover the first 60 miles in about an hour. It's the last 30 miles that takes me an hour or more depending on traffic. They have you in golden handcuffs or something?

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Nov 26, 2012 -> 09:42 AM) Speaking of which, it's a recent stock I've recommended (and invested in myself)...not because I "know" something, but because I believe the company is being overlooked and oversold. Corning's product (Gorilla Glass/Gorilla Glass 2) is in EVERY single cell phone/tablet device on the planet, and it seems nobody takes notice. They also have a lot of other products, to boot. http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=GLW They're trading at 11$. They pay a 3.2% dividend, they are profitable, and trading at a P/E of just under 9. They're a buy. Up 7.8% today after shattering expectations. =D

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Nov 27, 2012 -> 06:29 AM) My usual response to what I want for Christmas is "I don't know" or " A gift certificate", but this year I'm actually wanting a few specific things. I'd love to have a Keurig. I drink coffee everyday at work (I have a coffee pot in my office), but it's hard to justify making coffee at home on the weekends. So, having a Keurig would be nice as I could make one cup at a time. In addition, my wife and kids could use it for hot chocolate. I also have been eyeballing a tablet. As cool as an iPad is, I think I'd actually like the new 8.9" Kindle Fire. If you don't go with an iPad, please, go with a Nexus model Android. The Fire is simply terrible IMO.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 26, 2012 -> 09:41 AM) I'm aware of Gorilla Glass...just watch the video. I've seen that. But I've seen videos like that for decades now. Remember the AT&T "You Will?" commercials in the 90's?

QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 26, 2012 -> 09:38 AM) I seem to remember getting an email from my dad a year or so ago with all kinds of devices like this...I think it was made by Corning Glass or something...let me see if I can dig it up. A Day Made of Glass Speaking of which, it's a recent stock I've recommended (and invested in myself)...not because I "know" something, but because I believe the company is being overlooked and oversold. Corning's product (Gorilla Glass/Gorilla Glass 2) is in EVERY single cell phone/tablet device on the planet, and it seems nobody takes notice. They also have a lot of other products, to boot. http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=GLW They're trading at 11$. They pay a 3.2% dividend, they are profitable, and trading at a P/E of just under 9. They're a buy.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 26, 2012 -> 09:38 AM) I seem to remember getting an email from my dad a year or so ago with all kinds of devices like this...I think it was made by Corning Glass or something...let me see if I can dig it up. Gorilla Glass/GG2, it's on every cell phone in existence. But it's just clear, super strength glass, it's not a screen.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Nov 26, 2012 -> 09:35 AM) Minority report had alot of this type of s*** in it, but so did Quantum Leap. Quantum Leap? Dude was always holding a little device that made blips and bloops made of f***ing legos! Legos.

Peace on earth and good will toward men. Nothing I need, same thing I told my wife. When I want something, I go buy it. And I have the same problem as you IlliniKrush, I tend to want things for my house now...but at the moment there is nothing of need. If we are talking about wasteful want, I'll take granite countertops. But I'll eventually get around to redoing my kitchen anyway, so it can wait.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Nov 26, 2012 -> 08:59 AM) Black Friday does a nice job of encapsulating our terrible culture. The day (or sometimes hours) after we are supposedly thankful for everything we have, we rush out to stores to literally fight over mass-produced electronics offered at discounted prices. Yea, it's really sad.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Nov 26, 2012 -> 09:02 AM) Probably, in the long run, the $34k to $0k. Because taking that $34k to $24k was only going to benefit the current private-equity owners and the workers would just be taking another beating in a few years. The bakers union was very well aware of what their strike likely meant, and a majority of their members still felt it was more important to make that stand than to accept those drastic cuts. The problem with the "learn something useful" is that it comes with a hefty price tag more often than not and what's useful isn't static. That's why you have to try to use that education to make the best "educated" guesses as to what will be useful.