Y2HH

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 05:29 PM) That isn't really saying much of anything or providing any sort of solution or change though. I'm not going to pretend I have the answer for all society to solve racism. I can, however, do my part to raise my own kids to understand that people should be judged on their content of character, not their skin color. That's how you solve it, one family at a time. I also can't guarantee what I tell them sticks, but I sure as hell can try...and if we all did this...they'll grow up smart enough to NOT elect racists, that hire other racists, that hire even more. That is my small contribution.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 05:22 PM) But if you guys didn't keep whining about people calling for the flag to come down it would have amounted to a handful of posts and you guys could be talking about these unspecified real issues you keep mentioning. I clearly mentioned that racism is a learned trait, and it starts in the home. Of course you can't control your kids at some point and some will fall through the cracks, but this begins at a young age and grows from there. You can't blame parents 100%, but to pretend they aren't a large contribution is nothing more than excuse making. So unspecified my ass.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 05:19 PM) It solves the problem of government endorsement of white supremacist symbols. But so far all of the useless distraction seems to be coming from the people insisting on telling everyone why the symbol isn't racist or why taking it down won't solve racism. So why not just stop, let the flag be taken down, and then advocate for the causes you think will help. The only thing that will solve that is to stop electing racists. Simply removing the symbol but leaving the racists in power solves nothing.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 05:13 PM) Then let's get rid of it and move on to bigger issues, agreed? See, that's where we differ. You are interested in these little things that accomplish nothing, whereas I would much prefer to face the actual issue. If you fix the root of the issue the rest of the tree heals and these "false gods" and "symbols" will all disappear on their own. In the end we want the same result.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 05:06 PM) There is no single solution, but removing state endorsement of white supremacist symbols is a step in the right direction. I'll ask you again, what do you think removal of a symbol of white supremacy from state endorsement is preventing that would fix the "actual problem" of the prevalence and pervasiveness of racist ideology? We didn't say it would prevent anything, we are simply saying it also didn't solve anything, and it didn't.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 04:56 PM) I'm sure racism in the south is not solved as long as people think it's ok to fly that flag. Those same people will just replace that symbol with another...and once again the problem remains.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 04:44 PM) Nope, still think eliminating state endorsement of white supremacist symbols is part of the "real conversation." Saying "it's just a flag" is telling us to ignore the entire history of that flag and the rotten ideas it represents. There's no good reason to turn a blind eye to that or to tell people who (correctly) perceive it as a symbol of a deeply racist legacy in the south to pretend that it doesn't mean that. That's what it stood for in the 1860's, that what it stood for in the 1960's and that's what it still stands for. I'll again go back to the Germany analogy. The Waffen SS symbol is just some letters. Why can't it just be viewed as a symbol of Germany, no strings attached? Why not fly Nazi flags from government buildings as a symbol of their heritage, not their hate? edit: It's not how "I" choose to view it. It's how, historically and presently, it's been used. It is virtually exclusively white people that endorse that symbol. I'm sure racism in the south has been solved by the removal of that flag. Again, that's NOT the conversation. The conversation starts AND ends in the home. You can remove ALL the historic symbols of racism from the world right now and those that were programmed to be racists will invent NEW symbols or hijack other historical symbols as their new symbol. That flag wasn't flying in the present day as a symbol of racism regardless of what it was once symbolic of. Taking it down will solve NOTHING, and whether you accept that or not is irrelevant.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 04:37 PM) Well, the white south, anyway. If that's how you wish to view it, sure. It's just a flag. And now it's just a distraction from the real conversation.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 04:31 PM) And that's part of the problem. The Symbol of the South is a racist symbol. Flying it as a symbol of the south is being passively racist at best, if not actively. It needs to not be. Yes. Sorry I don't fit the old mold and view it as a racist symbol, even if that was its historic use. Today, it's just a symbol of the south. It doesn't make me want to hate black people.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 04:20 PM) What exactly do you think displaying the Confederate flag is? If it's in the home, and you tell your kids it's because you love slavery or hate black people you'd have a point, but I don't think the majority use that flag as that anymore. I don't even view it as racist so much as a symbol of the south, so it's not doing a very good job of teaching racism. Bottom line is a racist can point at a TV and use it as a symbol for passively teaching racism. The point of my previous post stands. Keep taking down flags... They'll find more.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 03:38 PM) Yes it's just one. Yes it's just getting rid of one flag. It's only 1 step along the lines of "neutralizing this kind of hateful environment". But at some point you do have to tell them no. You do have to tell a person it's not ok to fly a racist symbol. You do have to tell someone that it's not ok to rant about the (insert racist words). And when no one has the decency to do those things, then this environment festers, smolders, until it gets some air and erupts again. That's why you do the right thing. I agree on doing the right thing, because it's the right thing to do...NOT because it's "all of a sudden" the right thing to do since people are paying attention for a few minutes. Where I disagree is that this made a difference. No, it didn't. All this did was become the scapegoat to sweep a grizzly story under the rug, and for the majority of America, that's exactly what has happened. We pointed at a flag and raised arms to get it taken down (which hasn't even happened yet) and if/when the flag gets taken down, this story will die down or have already been forgotten, and everyone will take their short attention spans and move on to the next big thing. That is, until the another grizzly scene unfolds and we look for a new "flag" to point at as a symbol for what occurred. This starts and ends IN THE f***ING HOME, not on a flag pole. Until parents STOP passively or actively teaching their kids to become racists, this will continue to occur no matter how many flags you remove.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 03:30 PM) I love reading threads like this from older generations, as if they weren't the ones who produced and taught the younger generations. I agree, but my kids are taught to win...so...I'm not teaching that.

QUOTE (Iwritecode @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:57 PM) I think the whole idea of participation awards making kids ok with losing is BS to begin with. I'm almost 40 and we had those awards back when I played. It's not a "new" thing. The thing is, kids aren't stupid. They know what those trophies are. They know that they aren't nearly as good as the first place trophies the other kids are walking around with. Often times we would get ice cream or some other treat after the game even if we lost but it didn't make us want to win any less. Honestly, I think the bigger problem is the kids that are getting pushed by their parents who are trying to re-live their failed sports aspirations through their kids. I have 3 girls and only the youngest had/has any interest in playing any kind of sport. She's not the worst, but she's not the best either. If she wants to continue to try and get better I'll support her but I'm not going to push her thinking she'll be the next Cat Osterman or Jennie Finch. Also almost 40, but those sure as hell didn't exist around me when I was a kid.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:49 PM) Every generation has complained about "lazy kids these days looking for easy street!" That's true, but every generation prior to this one wasn't coddled and told that winning doesn't matter. When I was a kid, there was an old saying from the 1950's we ALL lived by -- winning isn't everything, it's the ONLY thing. Needless to say, the point of his post is that the current generations' saying is more akin too...winning isn't everything because everybody wins! They're all going to find how how ok it is to lose soon enough.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:30 PM) So let's say instead nobody said a word about the flag and we just talked in platitudes about "race relations" and "this psychotic lone wolf." What are we left with when this thing is 'forgotten'? So in either case, no progress gets made...so what did this actually accomplish other than get people talking about Walmart?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:16 PM) Unless you are trying to tell me that the confederate flag motivated him to kill, over everything else, then yes, this is not the thing we should be talking about. Gun Control at least makes sense to discuss, because that at least had the potential to stop this. The rebel flag? Not so much. Think about it, with police brutality, we actually talked about police tactics. Man goes and kills a bunch of black people, shouldn't we be talking about race relation, instead of symbology? Nah, this will distract people from the real issues because no one is comfortable with actually talking about race relations in this country because some one will get offended. Pretty much sums up my feelings at this point. Well said. The Wal-Mart's and eBays have made this "removal of a symbol" feel shallow and fake, because you know they did it for the publicity...not because they actually care.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:13 PM) The fact that so many Americans seem to have more of an objection to calls for taking the flag of white supremacists off of state capitols than to the flag itself is pretty pathetic. See, this I have no issue with...I get this. It's that it's being taken further than that, and it feels downright cheap now.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:09 PM) Yeah, it's a shame that the flag wasn't torn from the pole and burned as part of Haley's first speech as it should have been. It's sad that so much effort has to be put into just taking down a symbol of white supremacy let alone actually fighting against white supremacy. I'm sure all the white supremacists in the world will now reform their wayward ways and become good people since they lost their icon.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:07 PM) Shoot, this is some good PR. Walmart, Ebay, and now Amazon. The white supremcy flag was fine last week, but "Oh! A national story?! We're not cool with it now either!" The fact that it still works on the American people really saddens me. Finally, someone with a f***ing brain around here.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 01:57 PM) "to attacking the specter of the confederacy" LOL This isn't the first time people have objected to the confederate flag, it has been ongoing for years. But the argument is that you cannot celebrate that flag and the confederacy without endorsing it's very explicit ideas. This man endorsed those ideas explicitly, and people are surprised that people want to remove a white supremacist flag from flying over the state? Everything I wrote, that you responded too, was the exact opposite of everything you just said. I explicitly said I at least understand people wanting them to remove it from the state/city in an official capacity. I was speaking specifically as to how far they're actually taking this now. Everyone's getting on board just so people will look at them. Free publicity for WalMart and Ebay, Mitt Romney, etc... This is opportunistic. But thanks for actually reading.

QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 01:37 PM) Knee-jerk "we gotta do something, even if it isn't right, doesn't work or is off base." Because you never let a good crisis go to waste. Look, I don't care either way, I have no use for confederate flags, clothing or whatever the hell else people buy...I just think this has gone from a racist murderer who obviously had some pretty serious issues and some innocent people being gunned down to attacking the specter of the confederacy. When it comes to removing it as the official flag of a state/city, I can at least get that, but stores/online auctions banning merchandise seems to be a step too far. You aren't going to stop people from getting this stuff, and if anything, they're creating a huge market for it right now.

I believe eBay has banned the sale of Confederate merchandise now. With the amount of sudden reaction to a flag that's been flying for decades, you'd think the flag itself walked into that church and shot people. Shark jumped.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 10:30 AM) Just saw a story come across that Wal-Mart is going to stop selling Confederate Battle Flags. I believe they're going to stop selling confederate anything.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 10:29 AM) A lot of Germans were forced to fight in WWII who may not have totally bought into Nazi ideology. That doesn't change what the Nazis were all about or what their symbols represent. It's the same with the Confederacy. What some poor farmer who fought for the Confederacy believed doesn't change why the Confederacy existed and what its goals were. If their ancestors died fighting for the Confederacy, they died fighting for an unquestionably evil cause. You can't separate what the Confederacy stood for and what it did and what former Confederates who waged racial terrorism in the following decades (NBF for example) carried on using those symbols for, or why there was a sudden resurgence of the symbols across the South during the 20th century civil rights struggles. That's just turning a blind eye to history. Good point.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 10:24 AM) You do not need to go to full-blown re-enslavement for it to be a symbol of white supremacy. I have to believe that an overwhelming majority of people who proudly display or support displaying the confederate flag hold some pretty racist beliefs. I think that's a product of the people that tend to flag wave (regardless of what flag it is) also tend to be that kind of person. I love the 4th of July, but I don't run down the street with the stars and stripes chanting USA like Hacksaw Jim Duggan just came out...the people that do that sort of thing tend to be the exact kind of person you're talking about.