Y2HH

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 10:15 AM) Usually when people talk about what "The South" wanted to do, they're talking about a minority comprised of wealthy slaveowners who controlled their state and local governments. But it's worth pointing out that South Carolina's population was just over 40% black in 1860. Combine that with a minority of whites who did not favor slavery and you're not even looking at a majority of people in South Carolina wanting this. Thank you for pointing this out. It seems to me that a lot of people view any person living in the south before/during the Civil War as a slave owner...and I think it gets lost/forgotten that MOST people didn't own slaves, but lived on small prairie farms trying to get by. Now, with that in mind, I'd like to add to this that MOST of the people that fought for the south in the Civil War did NOT do so because they owned or wanted to own slaves, but because it's where they happened to live and didn't have a choice. This pertains to why I don't view what has become the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism, so much as a hijacked symbol of racism, BECAUSE a lot of the people that died beneath that flag did so because they were caught in a bad situation and forced to fight a war they didn't have any stake in, other than having the misfortune of living there. For those people that look at that flag, they see it as a symbol of their ancestors death...and I think, by and large, they're the majority, NOT the racist minority that carries that flag like a symbol of their superiority.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 10:00 AM) States rights are just another example of NOT IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD. Unless it's something I actually want in my neighborhood...so I'm willing to make exceptions if it's advantageous. We agree on something!

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 09:47 AM) The majority has said throughout its existence that the flag stands for white supremacy. It's why South Carolina decided to proudly fly it again during the Civil Rights movement. Pretending that this symbol doesn't have this horrible history or that it can somehow be cleansed of it is forgetting the past and where we've come from. I've never viewed that flag as a symbol of white supremacy. You know what I attribute it too? The General Lee. The car. Not the actual General. And just because you change somethings meaning over time, doesn't mean you have to forget or stop teaching it's origins.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 09:37 AM) First a minor pedantic quibble, civilians who were in the path of the fighting certainly would have seen the flag as well. I'd be surprised if Lee's army's flag wasn't printed in Confederate newspapers celebrating his victory as well. Second, you're now trying to argue a different point. You were earlier trying to claim that this flag was "hijacked" similarly to how the swastika has been perverted into a symbol of hate. Showing that the flag in question was not the most widely known flag of the Confederacy or that it was not the state flag but a battle flag does not establish that, however. The flag is and always has been associated with white supremacy. The symbol didn't exist before, it had no other meaning from which it was hijacked. This would be like arguing that the Waffen SS symbol was "hijacked" because it wasn't the official Nazi flag and wasn't the most well-known symbol during their rise to power. It's wrong at its core and it's not relevant. So, no, your argument still makes no sense. It's a confederate flag, and it's always stood for what the confederacy stood for. To clear this up, I wasn't speaking specifically of the confederate flag being hijacked...I was simply pointing out that symbols throughout history, both good and evil, have been and can be hijacked. If Hitler can hijack a good symbol and make it evil, why can't we hijack an evil symbol and make it good? The entire point of my post was that we don't allow the moron minority to dictate what means what to the majority. Only morons care what the confederacy stood for, but a lot of people today do NOT feel that way about that symbol. To them, it represents that a person in their family died, or holds a historic significance of what our country has emerged from. Condemning the past simply means forgetting the past. I don't think we should forget what we've come from. And I also don't think we should have allowed a flag to hijack the discussion away from what this thread was supposed to be about...the victims. It's about a flag now...a flag I don't care about and never have cared about. This was opportunistic, and a LOT of politicians seized the day.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 09:31 AM) This response neatly sums it up about the flag controversy: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-e-price...kusaolp00000592 No, it really doesn't. The only controversy, IMO, is that were talking about a flag now...and what was this conversation actually about? The fact is, the conversation of the victims was derailed by a petty flag that's been flying there for decades...but NOW it's suddenly important.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 09:29 AM) There's no semantics game to be played. The flag in question is and always has been associated with the Confederacy. It didn't exist before the Confederacy and was created by Confederates for a Confederate army that enslaved as many free blacks as they could. There is no other benign history from which it was "hijacked." It is not like the swastika. It was never used by other cultures in other places or times for any other reason. That's because you are viewing it in a historical perspective. The reason it's written that it wasn't known as a symbol of the confederacy until AFTER the war, was because at that time, nobody would have seen that battle flag unless they were -- you know -- in battle. So, when you said it made no sense, I'm merely pointing out that it makes perfect sense.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 09:23 AM) I know you said that, and it makes no sense whatsoever. The flag in question was the flag of Confederate General Robert E. Lee's Confederate Army of Northern Virginia. It was flown by a Confederate army in battles for the Confederacy and in the name of the Confederacy. It was never not associated with the Confederacy. It was always a symbol of treason in the name of slavery and white supremacy. It has no other history. You're playing semantics, so I'll do the same. It makes perfect sense that it wasn't attributed to them until after the war ended because most of the people never would have seen that flag. Opposing military may have, but regular people wouldn't have. You know what confederate flag the regular people of the south would have seen? That's right, Johnny!!! THE ACTUAL OFFICIAL FLAG OF THE CONFEDERACY!

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 09:20 AM) If any history teacher in the US showed those three flags from the post earlier in this thread, there isn't one student in 10,000 who would pick the first one as having anything to do with the South or Confederacy during the Civil War. They would all think it had something to do with the Revolutionary War/13 Colonies...one of the first version's of Betsy Ross' flag, etc. I dare you to come up with a picture OF ANYONE in the South proudly flying that flag today. Unless you go down there and give it to them by hand, it won't happen. And what does this have to do with facts? Are you pointing out that US kids are stupid and/or teachers aren't doing their jobs and actually teaching facts? The flags I posted there were the only official confederate flags, whether students know that or not is irrelevant.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 09:14 AM) Please explain how the battle flag of the main and most famous army of the Confederacy was ever not associated with the Confederacy. I pretty clearly said it became associated with the confederacy AFTER the war ended, because up until that point the confederacy had an official flag -- and that wasn't it.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 09:07 AM) The flag was the flag of Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia. It's always been associated with the Confederacy. This is the same army that deliberately enslaved as many free northern blacks as they could. It's a Confederate flag and chosen by racists in the years following the Civil War for what it's always represented, which is white supremacy. This is half true. Yes, it was a battle flag of Lee's army. No, it wasn't always associated with the confederacy, as pointed out in the article I linked, it didn't come to known as such until AFTER the war was over. No, it was NEVER an official flag of the confederacy. People are absolutely free to attribute it to the confederacy, but it was never an official flag of theirs.

I'd also like to point out that over the years, there has been about 75 "confederate flags", and the only official ones were: The flag people attribute to being the confederate flag is actually a battle flag and was never an official flag of the confederacy. It only came to be the flag most prominently associated with the Confederacy after the South lost the war. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/8-thin...nfederate-flag/

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 22, 2015 -> 05:12 PM) I can buy it in South Carolina. They're weirdly proud of being the first state to secede. Given the reaction that most South Carolinians have had to this tragedy, it's pretty clear they're not supporting what the flag originally meant or even what it may have meant in the 60's, which is why it's laughable that you think having this flag some how plays a part in this demented dude's view of America and black people specifically. Take away the confederate flag and that guy is still holding onto those views and his hate. Yep, take down the flag and get a bunch of rich white dudes in power to tweet a few "I don't believe this is right" and the problem of looney racists will be solved! This. As mentioned in my previous post, if racist pigs can hijack an ancient symbol and make it their own -- why can't regular folk hijack what was once a racist symbol and make it one of peace? You can't just ban everything racist morons decide to adopt as their own ... because they're morons, and you don't allow morons to dictate what means what in the modern world. And this thread should be about the victims, not a flag. If you wan't to have a "fun with flags" discussion with Sheldon Cooper, open a new thread. May as well re-title this thread "society in general" at this rate.

You know how they say keep your eye on the ball? This thread went from being about innocent people being murdered by a stupid racist asshole to flags and pastors saying gays should be executed. 1) Racists don't need a flag to be racists, they'll just find a new symbol to make their own. As Hitler did with the Swastika, which is now a "racist symbol" despite the fact that it's thousands of years older than that, going back as far as Ancient India and the city of Troy. It was once considered a good luck charm in aviation circles. Thousands of years of history were wiped away when racists adopted it as their own. What if these racists adopt the star spangled banner as their new "symbol/flag", do we ban American flags as well? 2) This is about Rev. Clementa Pinckney, Rev. Sharonda Singleton, Myra Thompson, Tywanza Sanders, Ethel Lee Lance, Cynthia Hurd, Rev. Daniel L. Simmons Sr., Rev. DePayne Middleton-Doctor and Susie Jackson...the innocents gunned down by a f***ing racist pig, whose name I will not print as he doesn't deserve it.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 21, 2015 -> 10:24 AM) Except for the pretensions of concern for the environment, health care access, urban poor/education, gun control and salary equality for women, pretty much. So, like I said, exactly as things are today.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 20, 2015 -> 08:36 PM) Greg, watch the "You've got Trumped" documentary and tell me if you still think the same. One thing's for sure, unless you're a fellow CEO, billionaire or earn $250,000 or more pear year in salary, your life will not be seeing any day-to-day improvements. Or do you simply mean Trump would be more entertaining? Do you really want him with the ability to declare war or launch nuclear weapons? What happens when other countries won't give in to his belligerent/ blowhard style? The nominating processis way too long....but it does knock out the pretenders or attention seekers. Remember H. Ross Perot? Remember Herman Cain last election cycle? This is a guy who believes his "Trump brand" is worth $1.5 billion...and his reasons for running are less about patriotism (he never served in the military) and more about rallying falling interest in his books/shows/wealth seminars. As much as you don't like Mrs. clinton giving paid speeches, Trump does it as much as anyone. Not to mention he's on his third wife, etc. maybe not the issue it once was, but it doesn't sit well with those who believe a single divorce is one too many. So exactly the same as things are today?

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 10:41 AM) Yeah that's ridiculous. He could just be trying to be funny. You can't tell that stuff through a picture. Sounds like they just caught him in NC. Would love to know what the motive was here, especially after spending an hour with those people in the church. I'm going to go with racist murderer.

QUOTE (shipps @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 10:19 AM) I get that. But if some dude sends me a friend request and he looks like that in his profile picture I am ignoring the s*** out of it. Or I am telling him dude whats up with your profile pick? You alright man? I don't think I've once paid attention to a persons profile pic when deciding whether to accept a friend request. And for that matter, basing everything I know about a person because they posted a single picture? Come on.

QUOTE (shipps @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 09:55 AM) Look at this dudes FB page and he has the weird "I am going to kill people look" as his profile picture. He has 87 friends that appear to be a mixture of all races. Who would be this crazy persons friend. People aren't crazy until they are. That's why it's pretty common to hear the old, "Wow, he was my neighbor for 30 years and was always very nice, we had no idea he was eating people!". The nutbar wielding an axe on a daily basis is much easier to point at and say, wow, that dudes insane, maybe we should call someone...but for the most part, crazy people are very normal...until the day they snap. This is one of the drawbacks to being a chemical and electrical form of life, normal can become crazy quite easily.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 17, 2015 -> 02:43 PM) I was there as well. Floor center row 2. Pretty sweet. We had club level seats for this show -- I did sit front row at a Rush concert once, though.

QUOTE (LDF @ Jun 17, 2015 -> 01:20 PM) I thought there was a thread already on music. well either way, i don't know why, but just wasting my day at work, writing on the sox and listening to some classic rock. Rush best all morning and i do love me some great drums and guitar. Hemisphere #1 9:01 in great rift and great backup with neil pert on the drums. still amazes me, the drummer writing all the songs .... right there with phil collins. I just saw them at the UC last Friday night...twas fun. They've been my favorite band since I was a teen, and remain my favorite band today.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 12, 2015 -> 02:44 PM) It's crazy. They passed the measure today to s*** on the poor and middle class and help the rich business owners. But ... we the people re-elected Brownback just a few months ago. I need to get out of this godforsaken state. Or do all states suck? What measure was this? And if you think that state sucks, come to IL.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 12, 2015 -> 07:02 AM) Cut taxes for the wealthy, raise them where they primarily impact the poor and middle class. The wealthy pay sales taxes, too.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 11, 2015 -> 04:28 PM) And in the case of a dozen cops talking to people by a pool, neither of them is fine. OR necessary. As shown by the other 11 policemen on the scene. And I wouldn't disagree with you, but this is a rational thought.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 11, 2015 -> 03:51 PM) Why can't they taze? Oh I know. It's not assured the taze will work 100 percent of the time. So they need to shoot bullets. Give me a break. The tazer will work. There are situations in which a tazer is fine, and there are situations in which they're not. This isn't black and white. Also, you'd be screaming if the cops tazed someone and they somehow died or suffered other complications from the tazer, because the cop should be psychic and know the person had some sort of dormant condition.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 11, 2015 -> 03:13 PM) They don't want to pull this type s*** with cities who fund their police stations and pay their salaries. Cops need to realize they have caused this bulls*** to begin with. They need to calm the f*** down and serve and protect or go get a job at Wendy's. greg775 Translator: Rabble, rabble, I'm the self-appointed voice of the anti-police generalization movement, rabble, generalization, rabble.