GreatScott82

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 11, 2016 -> 03:15 PM) Serious question. Say the Sox went into full rebuild and traded everyone away. How many years of losing until you started moaning about years not in the playoffs and the rest? Could you go 3 years and not say a peep about the team on the field being awful? I doubt most can. The second half of 2013 and 2014 the Sox were clearly rebuilding, yet they hold the w-l record against the manager. There was tons of complaining about roster construction in 2014 with Konerko being brought back to be the 25th guy. I wouldn't call the second half of 2013-14 a rebuild. That time period is too truncated for an actual rebuild. Not only that, they didn't really focus on long term prospect development. They brought in guys who can contribute to the MLB roster immediately, with exception of a few pitchers and Matt Davidson-- who they intended on bringing up right away, but he just could not hit the ball. If they maintained the course of direction heading into 2015 and traded Alexei Ramirez when his value was at its peak, while maintaining the 2nd and 3rd round draft picks for 2015--I'd say OVERALL, the organization would be in a much better shape. The fact of the matter is, they went for it in 2015 and failed and the farm system once again took a back seat, which we are very much noticing this year with the lack of position player depth to help alleviate positional player injuries. Since this is year 2 of KW's phantom 3 year window, I really do not foresee them trading away veterans for an influx of youth. However, doing so may actually accelerate the rebuild that could have been if they stayed on that 2013-14 course of action. For instance, lets say they keep: Sale, Rodon, Eaton, Anderson and Abreu but decided to trade off veterans like: Quintana, Robertson, Melky and Frazier-- hello youth influx! A Quintana trade alone can bring in multiple position players with high level talent. We are talking a team's #1 prospect AND their #6-10 prospect. Robertson, Melky and Frazier would be very attractive pieces to a contending team and can also bring in some team's top 10 prospects as well. Selling high on players is something KW or Hahn rarely does. It something that can rock the foundation of an organization-- perhaps it is something this stale playoff-less organization needs to consider this deadline. It is either that OR another year watching October baseball from their couches coming up with new ways to 'retool' the same roster for 2017. (sigh)

The White Sox have a golden opportunity to tease everyone with another series win. However, they lose a series at home vs a horrible Atlanta team. This team is nothing more than an 82 win team. That will NOT be enough to win that second wildcard spot. I would say sell, sell, sell and either start prepping for 2017 and beyond. However, we all know what will happen. Hahn and KW will with stand pat and hope to catch lightning in a bottle ( their famous approach), OR they will sell off three or four of our best prospects for an impact bat. The sad thing is, I think it will be the ladder AND they will STILL miss the playoffs. That's how sad our organization is. Just imagine how many valuable prospects they can get for the likes of Quintana and Abreu. Or even Eaton, Melky and Frazier? It reminds me of the Alexei Ramirez situation of 2014-15. They had a golden opportunity to get more high quality near MLB ready prospects, but instead decided to keep him. We all know how Alexei did in 2015 I'm convinced Hahn and KW do not know when to sell high on veterans.

The White Sox are in such an odd spot right now. They have a lame duck manager, are in the middle of an odd 3 year window that KW claimed last year (2015-17), are 7+ games behind the tough Indians, yet are only 2.5 games back in the wild card race. The question they need to ask themselves is-- can we win the World Series his year? As of right now, they are nowhere near better than Cleveland, so is it too risky to simply trade prospects just to go for a wildcard spot? A risk of losing pieces of the future for the possibility to get knocked out of a one game playoff game. Or is it the plan to acquire a veteran that is locked up for the rest of 2016 and 17? A guy like CarGo or Bruce? The way I see it, Jackson and Morneau are one year rentals-- anything you get from them is a HUGE bonus to 2016. However, they need to have the mindset for the future as well. I'm all about retaining prospects and possibly even adding prospects this deadline. However, knowing KW and Hahn and seeing their patterns this season, I expect a HUGE deal made at the deadline that will likely sacrifice Fulmer, and possibly Spencer Adams. I'm calling it now, the White Sox will either acquire CarGo or Bruce right after the ASB.

QUOTE (Dam8610 @ Jul 4, 2016 -> 08:06 AM) My guess is the answer depends on Brett Lawrie. First 33 games (23-10): .271 AVG, .817 OPS Next 35 games (9-26): .191 AVG, .570 OPS Last 13 games (9-4): .377 AVG, 1.079 OPS Seems like when Brett hits, the Sox win, and when he doesn't, they don't. Wow. Interesting stuff. I wonder what their record is since they inserted Tim Anderson into the lineup as well?

Winning three series in a row is nice, but a nice 7-8 game winning streak would actually make things interesting again. Last year a 7 game winning streak forced the front office to stand pat at the deadline-- which of course was immediately followed by a disastrous 2nd half. A very poor call by the Hahn/KW duo. This year it seems like Hahn/KW are in desperate mode-- so another 7 to 8 game winning streak will likely cause the front office to add a bat.

QUOTE (flavum @ Jun 29, 2016 -> 07:31 PM) The way the Astros and a couple other teams look, the Sox should have clarity soon that they're out of it. I think it's safe to say they are well beyond out of it. A team that can't beat the teams in their own division do not deserve to make the playoffs.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jun 29, 2016 -> 12:52 PM) All money decisions are ownership decisions. This premature "going for it" and bogus "3 year window" (when the core was signed for 5/6 years) was probably an ownership decision or a KW decision. it was totally unrealistic and had little chance of working (as we are seeing). But for as long as KW has worked with JR and for as long as Hahn has worked with KW, he's got to have developed some trust. And he should have told JR to wait a year or 2 until we rebuild this thing and THEN we'll go for it. In the meantime, spend some money on the organization. But KW was probably the "go for it" instigator. I still think they could make some progress without trading Sale and Q; put Robertson, Frazier and Cabrera out there. Another 'retooling' approach? From everything I've read or heard thus far, that will most definitely be their approach. In fact, it has always been their approach. The 'ol catch lightning in a bottle with guys off the scrap heap to an occasional free agent signing to an occasional trade for players passed their prime etc.. It's a system that has failed them over and over-- yet they fail to change. They try to do a little bit of this and alittle bit of that to put together a team 'on the fly' For once, I would like to see them commit to one thing. Commit to restocking the farm with prospects and spend 2-3 years developing guys. Commit to going ALL IN on type A free agents not just a couple of type B guys. The problem with the white sox, is their horrible retooling approach. Just knock it off! Commit to a damn direction!

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 25, 2016 -> 02:18 AM) Please come back, Mark. He could be ready by August. Pitch the rest of this year then join the rotation next year. Bullpen the last five weeks of this season then rotation next year. If he did make a comeback with the Sox his first appearance would be one of the loudest ovations ever. Buerhle is my favorite White Sox player of all time. Honestly, he would probably still be effective as a reliever. He started his career in the White Sox bullpen, it's only fitting he finishes his career there.

Heard Bruce Levine on the radio this morning and he said Hahn has not fired Robin yet because he feels the players are still trying hard. He said the reason they are bad are because of the moves he made have not worked out and it has nothing to do with Robin. The circle of crap continues. No consequences whatsoever. When the heat is on Robin- Hahn steps in- When its on Hahn- Kenny steps in- when its on Kenny- JR steps in. And the cycle repeats. It kind of reminds me of the life cycle of the pork tapeworm, if not remedied properly, eggs of nastiness will continue to hatch and take over your system.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 19, 2016 -> 08:57 AM) Of course not. Although they have made moves that seemed logical that exploded in their faces. There is something about hitters when they come to the White Sox stinking the place up. Is it because of something here or a problem with the identifying? They really wanted Alex Gordon. Seemed logical. Yet he was stinking the place up before he got hurt. Biut the list is long. Abreu and Eaton are the only 2 I can recall that gave you career average offense from the start. I think it's the identifying factor for getting hitters. It has been a very big problem. Hahn and KW seem desperate this year and we all know when you run a team in a desperate manner, bad things are likely to happen. It's definitely time for someone new to take over the reigns of this team. A new president, GM and manager. They went in it together-- they failed together. Now they should all leave together.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 19, 2016 -> 08:34 AM) I think Robertson and Melky are better than a 2nd and 3rd round pick. Every draft we all get excited about 20 guys the team selects. If 2 of them actually pan out to contributing pieces, you are doing alright. Melky and Robertson have been good signings, I give you that. However, overall do you think Hahn and KW did a good job with this ball club from 2012- to present day? My issue is the overall inconsistencies with their plan. Or lack there of.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 19, 2016 -> 08:11 AM) 2012 was a surprise. They were not good in 2011 and brought back almost the same team minus Buehrle,I believe they set a record for rookie pitchers used, and faded down the stretch as guys like Sale ran out of gas, Pulie injuring his wrist,and Youkilis being banged up, 2013 thyey had hoped to build on it but it went south quickly. The Tyler Fowers era wasn't going as well as some predicted. They did exactly what you want them to do know, and blew it up. They goy Avi, who people were just as excited about then, as they are pissed off Trayce Thompson isn't here now. 2014 rebuilding year, didn't stop game threads from thinking they should be 145-17 at worst. The bottom line is whether they say they are trying to win or not, how much does it really matter? Would the team be so much better set for the long haul with Thompson and Semien still aoumd? I don't think so. White Sox fans are the only fans I know who think the team is doing them a favor if they don't try to win. Its not about simply losing Thompson. It's losing those draft picks in 2015, it's the lack of direction. Or should I say, maintaining a course for direction. They get on and off and completely misjudge talent and overall needs for the organization. Can you be honest with yourself and say KW and Hahn's tenure from 2012 and on have been a success? If they go for it-- it's half a$$, if they rebuild or should I say 'retool' it's bringing in mediocre guys or players who are just slightly above average players. White Sox fans don't want to 'lose' for the sake of losing. However, if it's apart of a TRUE rebuilding plan, Heck we would embrace it. Why? Because it means they actually have a course for a true direction. No more muddling along in mediocrity land.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 19, 2016 -> 06:56 AM) So because you think the Sox suck, the ideal thing to do is trade everyone away and because these players suck, teams will give you better players making less money, just because. If your goal is to have them suck , they are there. I don't know why you differentiate being trying to win and not trying to win. A bad record puts you in the same place. This isn't the Cubs who did most of their rebuild through some trades. You could trade Sale and Q and Rodon and Abreu and get some good prospects, but then what.? The Cubs spent half a billion on free agents. And even in a rebuild you will be pissed off. It was quite clear the Sox were rebuilding the second half of 2013 and 2014. That didn't seem to stop people from b****ing about losing . I actually think some people are afraid of the Sox ever being good. The thing is, in 2013 they were actually put together to compete for the division. Don't you remember the amazing Keppinger signing and retaining Peavy? The problem was, they were bad and had a manager in over his head. It wasn't until the trade deadline in 2013 that they sold off assets to bring in a few prospects (Avi and Montas). Yeah they signed Abreu in early 2014 and made trades for Eaton and Davidson but were they truly rebuilding? Looking back on it, it was nothing but a roster shake up for a few younger guys. In 2014, fans did not b**** about losing as we knew the mission was to continue to add younger pieces. The problem was 2015-- instead of staying the course, rebuild the farm and continue to add younger guys-- they decided to go for it! They sacrificed 1st and 2nd round draft picks and we all know how 2015 went-- disaster! So let's look back on everything: 2012- Supposed to compete for the division and do until collapse in September 2013- Supposed to compete for division-- end up being horrible--sell off assets at deadline 2014- A growing year for the new guys- focus on draft 2015- Risk draft picks to sign free agents and go for it prematurely which consequently set the team back and they were a complete disappointment (The Fire Robin chants begin) Decide NOT to trade assets at deadline-- total misjudgment by Hahn/KW 2016- Go for it again-- trade a talented outfielder in Thompson and a few others for Frazier and attempt to catch lightning in a bottle with guys like Rollins and Latos and bringing in mediocre younger guys like Lawrie and Jackson to put bandaids on a team with numerous holes. It worked in April and some of May, but now it's blowing up in their faces. This team is not good. And now we have even less talent in the farm. Let's not forget all the DFA's and the Shields deal which has been a complete disaster. Looking at the patterns of Hahn and KW, it's pretty disturbing seeing all the sidetracks they go on. To let's go for it, to adding young talent, to trading young talent to go for it again to not doing anything. The lack of a true direction is mind boggling. IMO they all need to go. Robin, Kenny and Hahn. They have failed to put together a team and system that can maintain sustainable success. The statement Hahn mentioned numerous times back in 2013 and '14 when the plan was to restock the team and system with younger talented players.

Wow. This James Shields trade sure is blowing up in the face of Hahn. Latos and Johnson perhaps even Danks look better than this guy. This ship sank a long time ago. #FireEveryone #ZeroConsequences #Corpseball

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jun 18, 2016 -> 07:44 AM) The only way they're going to strike lighting in a bottle is if they go out and add an impact hitter ASAP and then hope that when Morneau is ready he can be a capable DH. Say we add CarGo, here's how our lineup could look like: 1. Anderson, SS 2. Eaton, CF 3. Abreu, 1B 4. CarGo, RF 5. Frazier, 3B 6. Cabrera, LF 7. Lawrie, 2B 8. Morneau, DH 9. Avila, C Austin Jackson could be our 4th OF and allow us to shift Eaton to RF against LHP. Might allow us to go with a Leury Garcia type over Shuck to add some speed/versatility to the bench. And honestly, maybe it's time they have consider firing Steverson. Lawrie's K rate is 50% worse than his career average. Frazier is sporting a horrifically low BABIP but that corresponds with a significant decrease in his line drive rate. I haven't seen much in terms of changes for either player. These were our key two offensive additions this offseason and they are underperforming. Maybe it's worst seeing if a new voice creates a spark. I'm not one to think a hitting coach has a huge impact, but I do believe new perspectives occasionally help. Worth a shot in trying to save this season IMO. I wanted the Sox to get CarGo for the longest time, but looking at the farm system and the current state of the franchise-- they should probably be sellers and not buyers at the deadline.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jun 17, 2016 -> 09:50 PM) Ventura is a symptom of a stodgy, mediocre front office that lacks creativity, finesse and sorely lacks talent evaluation skills. Not point in moving Ventura if Rick Hahn is still GM; and probably no reason to move Hahn without moving Williams out. They all have infinite lives. Pretty embarrassing that their is a complete lack of consequences when your organization has missed the postseason 8 straight seasons. 5 in which have had the same manager. But don't worry, it's not the managers fault or upper management's fault. It is ALL on the players. Wait, but who acquires those players? And who manages those players? It's a circle of crap. I'm convinced JR accepts mediocrity. Like I said, the White Sox are run like a country club, a bunch of friends hanging out and win or loss --it doesn't matter because everyone is making money.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 15, 2016 -> 06:05 PM) Well, this is it for Robin. Sale either wins tonight or we have a new manager in Renteria tomorrow. It's coming, folks. It makes sense. In fact it should have happened at the end of May, so even with a loss to Detroit-- expect to see Robin Ventura on the plane ride to Cleveland. I have very little faith in upper management to make this obvious move.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jun 12, 2016 -> 05:52 PM) At this point, a target should be placed on Hahn & KW's backs. It's bulls*** they continue to blame the players when they are the ones who put the team together. If the players are once again underperforming (their opinion), then they should want to fire Robin and see if another manager can get them to play up to their potential. Right now, it feels like they're keeping Robin around to avoid the heat being brought onto them and ensuring themselves another year by canning him in the offseason. Agreed. No other reason for him to still be here after this pathetic, lifeless stretch of baseball. Im also starting to think JR is losing a pulse on everything due to his age. Back in 2003, I'm pretty sure he went down to the clubhouse to reem the team out for being lifeless.( It was Manual's last year) You just don't see or hear him doing this anymore.

QUOTE (flavum @ Jun 12, 2016 -> 02:34 PM) Good inning there. Just want to see him pitch with more conviction, ya know? I hear ya. He always looks grumpy .

QUOTE (Soxfest @ Jun 12, 2016 -> 02:30 PM) Time coming soon with this offense even diehard Sox fans not going to pay to see this team at all. Regardless of who is starting pitcher for the Sox. Time coming soon for what?

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Jun 12, 2016 -> 02:27 PM) Brett Lawrie is our own version of Dan Uggla isn't he? He swings at just about everything. Reminds me of Avi's approach. Which in general is not very good.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 12, 2016 -> 02:04 PM) Eaton sure stinks right now. Amazing how far his average has plummeted Assuming they lose. How many AL Central series defeats in a row will this be? This offense is pathetic right now. Horrible approaches.

My only concern with Sale is his lower velocity which seems to be generating harder bat-to-ball contact. Should i be concerned?

QUOTE (Special K @ Jun 9, 2016 -> 09:34 PM) I hate to do this to everyone, but if we take 2 of 3 from KC, we're back in business. Stop.. It's the AL central were talking about. But seriously, kick those choochy Royals while their down. Enough of this losing vs the AL Central crap. Man up!

So today we absorb the crap that was James Shields yesterday, Sign Morneau and send him to the DL, we find out JR is pissed off about the team's current state, Hahn once again deflects all Robin scrutiny with another politically correct response and the MLB draft is about to get started. This has been the most bipolar, ridiculous season that I can remember being a Sox fan. Welcome to bizzaro world aka 35th and Shields.