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QUOTE (SoxAce @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 03:04 PM) You won't get an argument from me. For a big guy, Amar'e can't board to save his life (though he's better in the playoffs) and has played with Nash damn near his whole career. (Boozer was already a solid player before Deron Williams came into the league and became Deron Williams) Also he is the worst overall defender between the two IMO. They both suck defensively. Amare just doesn't try, Boozer is limited with his length and lateral quickness. Boozer's career average is only 17 a game even playing the pick and roll with Williams, Amare is at 21. That's a big difference.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 03:03 PM) He is? Yeah, he is. Amare is a damn good pick-and-roll shooter, he hit 48, 48, 46 and 42 of his 16-23 foot jumpers the last four years.

QUOTE (thxfrthmmrs @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 03:01 PM) I said Bosh was an oversized small forward who is also a good rebounder.. Bosh is the rupaul of basketball. That's what shaq said. Well if Shaq said it it must be true! Does that mean Garnett is an oversized SF then? What about Rasheed Wallace? Amare? A lot of power forwards aren't really low-post bangers anymore.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 02:52 PM) I'll take Boozer over Amar'e, honestly. They have fairly similar strengths and weaknesses, but Amare (I refuse to use the apostrophe) is more explosive and is a better shooter. Plus if Amare ever tried on defense, I don't think it would be close.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 02:49 PM) Other than Bosh, Dirk, Amar'e and Gasol name me one more that is better than Boozer. Not trying to prove anything, but I'm drawing a blank off the top of my head since Duncan played center last season (unless you want to still count him as a power forward) Garnett is declining and Aldridge isn't there yet. I am calling Duncan a PF even though he often plays center (same is true of Bosh, Amare and Gasol). He's probably right after them at the moment, though over the next few years Jefferson (if healthy), Lee and Griffin could be better.

QUOTE (thxfrthmmrs @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 02:26 PM) huh? what? I am talking about individual skills sets, not winning. Any team Bosh was on sucked, end of argument. 4 Years ago, Lakers were crap team, Kobe is averaging 35 ppg, people crown him as the best in the league. Now it's a debate between Lebron and Kobe, and yet their PER is drastically different. It's could be the same debate with Bosh and Boozer. You can't necessarily say Bosh is better than Boozer just because of PER, it doesn't measure accurately. It also depends on the team you are on, the style of basketball you play, the competition you played against, and the efficiency on defense, any type of clutch plays, how they fare in the playoffs. You can't measure any of those with PER. So to say Bosh is better than Boozer because he consistently puts up better PER is faulty. Bosh is better because he's a better player, PER is what you use to try to back that up. He is a better offensive player than Boozer and is more mobile. Also, any expert in the league will tell you that Bosh is a better player, and that Boozer isn't even a top-5 player at his position. I lost track of where else this was going, other than laughing at your general "Bosh is an overrated SF that had a career year" point.

QUOTE (thxfrthmmrs @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 01:33 PM) PER is nice advanced stats, but it's not what separates a good player from a bad player. Marrese Speights had a PER of close to 20 in his rookie year, does that mean he is the rookie of the year over Rose? Kobe's PER is always far from Lebron's, why do people argue Kobe over Lebron? You can't compare two players base on their stats and PER. Stats don't measure intangibles. Yes, Deng and Beasley have similar numbers, but 95% people will tell you they will rather have Deng over Beasley. the Magic had a great defensive team over the past two seasons, and the guys like Lewis, Carter, Nelson, Turkolu aren't remotely close to being great defensive players. It was all due to Howard's inside presence. Bosh was surrounded by subpar defensive players, but it's no excuse to finish last in the league in defensive efficiency. If you have watched any of the Raptors game, he is not physical defender, not a good help defender, nor does he block shots. He is not a good defender. Period. Minutes played are obviously a major consideration. There's a big difference in posting a 20-plus in 38 MPG and doing it in 20 MPG. Chris Bosh has consistently been one of the most efficient big men in the league in heavy minutes. He's a very good offensive player that is effective on the glass. People argue Kobe over Lebron because he has Pau Gasol and wins more, that doesn't mean Kobe's a better player. The team around you has a huge impact on your individual standing. Pau Gasol got basically all of the same crap thrown at him as Bosh did now when he was with Memphis, now you don't hear any of that because he landed in a much better situation. I never argued that Bosh is a good defender, guys have their own strengths and weaknesses. Bosh doesn't have a ton of bulk, so he needs some help doing the dirty work inside. Pairing him with Bargnani up front is just asking him for trouble, pairing him with someone like Perkins or Noah would drastically improve things. It's not Bosh's fault they had a poorly constructed roster. Howard is one of the best defenders in the league so of course their defense is decent. He's an awesome defender and the rest of their team is fairly average. I don't see how that is relevant in any way since Howard is clearly better than Bosh and isn't on any of the teams in question. Players that can single-handedly improve an entire defense are rare.

QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 01:17 PM) Like Jason said, Deng isn't an all-star but he is still very capable of playing at a near-all-star level. He plays solid defense. And is a deadly open shooter. The people who hate Deng are right to dislike his contract, his unwillingness to play injured and his injury proneness. But when he is healthy, he is a great player to have. I have always thought he is a perfect third option for a team, and now, he finally is. He will only be helped by the added shooting the Bulls will get this FA. He's really not an All-Star or close to it. He's a slightly above average SF that isn't quick enough to take people off the dribble and not a good enough shooter to hit 3's. What he can do is finish at the rim when he does get chances in that area, move well off the ball and shoot mid-range jumpers at a decent clip. On a team with other good players that can shoot, he's an asset, on a team with other guys that can't hit the 3's like Rose and Boozer he's okay but not a great fit.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 12:30 PM) But he should get better having a low post player around him. Hes' a relatively efficient scorer coming off his best season. The key to Deng is health. He isn't an all star, but he's an above average player and an asset. Especially now that he's extended his range and appears capable of being a decent 3 point shooter. If Luol continues to improve that aspect of his game he should be quite valuable (albeit a little overpaid in my eyes). He's really not that efficient a scorer, he needs 14 shots to reach the high teens in scoring. He has peaked as an 18 PPG scorer even as the #1 or #2 option on the Bulls. He doesn't hit many 3's and has never gotten to the line 5 times per game. Adding a post player or a guy that will be a major part of the pick and roll game will likely reduce his touches. I would imagine he would drop to something like a 13-14 PPG scorer on 10 or 11 shots on a better team.

QUOTE (sircaffey @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 12:22 PM) Deng just turned 25 a couple months ago. He's not a finished product. Yes he is. He's been a starter in the league for six seasons, a major leap forward in production is extremely unlikely at this point.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 12:19 PM) So could the Heat still sign Wade and bring in Miller if they trade Beasley? BTW, Haywood back to Dallas http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ys-h...mavericks070810 I don't see how unless someone takes less money. $17 mil times three (rounding) equals $51, so I can't see how they could squeeze in $5 mil for Miller when you factor in cap holds.

QUOTE (sircaffey @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 12:16 PM) Does anyone else think that a solid zone defense would give the Heat trio trouble? They'll be killer in transition, no doubt, but in the half court, how good can they possibly be? Pretty much no one in the NBA ever plays a zone, so it's a moot point. You also can't just park in the lane without guarding anyone like you can in college, so it's nowhere near as effective.

QUOTE (sircaffey @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 12:13 PM) The reason why no one really likes Beasley is because he's a tweener. He's too big for SF and too small for PF. Thus, his defense really is an issue. I'd rather have Deng as a player all day long. That said, I would trade Deng for Beasley only because the contractual difference. Beasley is easily tradable not because a lot of people want him, but because his contract is desirable. He's also easily tradeable because he's only 21 and has tremendous offensive potential. Deng isn't anywhere near as easy to trade because he's overpaid and you know exactly what he is at this point, a guy that is at best the #3 scorer on a decent team. Deng has been a bit better so far, but it's far from a lock that he will be over the next 5 years or so.

QUOTE (thxfrthmmrs @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 12:08 PM) i remember just two years ago many analysts called bosh an overrated oversized small forward who is also a decent rebounder. Yes, he had a nice run last year during his contract year, it's highly doubtful he will have another year like last year's. With him in the lineup, Toronto was the worst team in the league in terms of defense. So i dont think you can call him a defensive stopper either. Um, what? That isn't remotely true. Bosh has put up a PER north of 22 for five straight seasons (a total Boozer has only reached once) while averaging at least 22-9 every year during that stretch. As for the Toronto part, have you looked at their roster? They're playing a small forward at center, of course their defense sucks. Put him on a team that doesn't have a lot of soft, jump-shooting European players and their defense would improve.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 12:02 PM) Other teams will help facilitate things though. We give them a pick or something. Trade exceptions can not be combined with other assets.

QUOTE (thxfrthmmrs @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 12:00 PM) You must be high if you think Deng = Beasley. Unlike Beasley, deng doesn't have attitude problems, and works hard on defense. Deng is a grown man, and beasley is a whiny little b****. Heat wants to trade Beasley for a pure salary dump, but Bulls would actually get something in return for Deng. Overall Deng is a much better player and team player right now. deng > beasley by a landslide the heats have 1 superstar, 1 borderline superstar, 1 bench player, bulls have 1 future superstar, 1 allstar, and 1 potential allstar. Given that, I would say Heats might have a little bit of an edge there. but the bulls also have two solid role players in Gibson and Johnson. And the Bulls should have about $2.5mil to sign a free agent after they hand out a max, while if the Heat sign the big 3, they would be forced to sign only minimum contracts. So overall, the Bulls should have an edge overall in terms of roster. But roster is not the biggest concern here, Lebron's ego and loyalty ultimately decides where he will sign. Deng is a 16-17 PER type player that averages somewhere around 17-6, Beasley is about a 16-17 PER player that averages around 15-6 in far fewer minutes. They're pretty damn comparable. Obviously Beasley's attitude is an issue, which I've mentioned, though Deng also gets hurt at a far higher rate. If you're using "future" and "potential" on the Bulls' side, then it doesn't really help your case a whole lot. Johnson also isn't really a "solid role player" either, he barely played. Mario Chalmers is easily a better role player than Johnson at this point, at least he can defend and hit 3's (though at a much better clip last year). The Heat and Bulls would both have basically the exact same amount of cap space if they didn't add another max player, giving them a basically equal chance to improve their roster. We're not talking about Lebron joining either team as clearly if he goes to either that gives that team an edge.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 11:56 AM) Asik as well (albeit not technically under contract). Plus we have a couple trade exceptions that will allow us to sign people for 3 to 4 mill deals (Hakeem Warrick exception, Hinrich exception, etc). That is a much different story. And if the reports are true, Bulls don't have Deng if they get Lebron but instead have a couple other guys that give us depth. Trade exceptions don't let you sign guys, they're only for trading purposes. You'd have to convince someone to give you a player for nothing basically.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 11:49 AM) How much is the MLE worth again? About $5.7 mil, though neither the Bulls nor Heat would have it.

QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 11:42 AM) Rose/Deng/Boozer/Noah > Wade/Bosh/Chalmers/Beasley I don't really see how you can say that when the two best players in the equation are on the other side. Deng and Beasley are both talented forwards that most seem to want to give away for free, so they kind of cancel out. Does Noah's defense/rebounding make up ALL of the difference between the caliber of the two stars? Hard to say. I would say it depends on who else signs. If they Heat got Haywood or some other defensive center, then I'd say they're better than the Bulls since Noah is the only edge you can really argue that Chicago has right now.

QUOTE (sircaffey @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 11:37 AM) Let's not forget how good the Bulls were playing before injuries hit last season. They were looking awesome. Now we have Boozer and $17 million worth of other players. There is hope as far as I'm concerned. They also dumped Hinrich, who isn't great but was at least a somewhat serviceable guard. Right now the only guard on the roster is Derrick Rose, that's kind of a problem.

QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 11:34 AM) Miami with 4 players is better than the Bulls? How many do the Bulls have again? Rose Deng Noah Gibson Boozer James Johnson cap space So that'd be only 6, with no starting-caliber shooting guard at the moment.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 11:07 AM) I think one of the two big points you made there is the minutes. I think the top 3 might have to play even more minutes than that for Miami, and they're all going to get fouled constantly because none of them are really jump shooters (even though they all can hit jump shots). The other is the issues they have inside on defense, and I'm not sure how they'll address those. I don't think they'll play that many more minutes, people thought it would be an issue in Boston as well. There will be plenty of games against teams like the Warriors or Timberwolves where they won't even have to play the 4th quarter. If I had to guess, Lebron/Wade at the most would average their usual 38 MPG (only with a bit more coasting since neither has to run the offense the entire game anymore) and Bosh would play around 36 like he did this year. They're all getting fouled constantly now, don't really see much of a difference. Interior defense is definitely a huge issue, but it will matter more in the playoffs than the regular season. I would imagine they'll try to sign guys like Jermaine O'Neal, Theo Ratliff and Udonis Haslem.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 10:55 AM) It seems like a lot of people have absolutely no idea how good they are, let alone will be. No matter where LeBron goes today and Carmelo goes eventually, OKC will end up with the Larry O'Brien trophy at least once in the coming years. I actually agree with you on some of the Heat draft pieces too. But 2nd round picks could certainly flame out, no matter how good they look on paper. OKC needs to drastically improve their frontcourt before they can be taken seriously as a legitimate contender. Ibaka/Krstic at center and the undersized Green at the 4 isn't going to cut it. It'd also help if Westbrook improved his shot selection.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 10:47 AM) Anyone who says the "Miami Thrice" and crap players would win titles need only look at the 2003-2004 Lakers. 4 hall of famers on that team and they couldn't win. I think Miami will be a really good team with all three, obviously, but it's not guarantee that they'll win a bunch of rings. You mean the team that won 56 games and lost in the NBA Finals? It's not like they were that far off. Besides, that's not remotely comparable as Payton and Malone were both well past their prime. Before you or someone else says it, same with the Olajuwon/Barkley/Pippen trio in Houston.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 10:34 AM) Everybody seems to take either the side that Miami Thrice would win 5 or 6 rings, or that they wouldn't win any at all, and I disagree with both. When you have a team that basically pays it's entire salary cap number to three guys, and only two of them are superstars, one isn't even a top 10 players, it's not a lock you'll win every year. But when you have two of the top 4 players in the league and a guy who's between 11 and 15 together for 5 years or so, you'll be able to piece together the right cheap and mediocre players around them to win a ring or two. I don't think there are the right players out there though (people aren't going to just come to Miami for nothing with the CBA coming up) to put alongside the big three next year for me to pick them against the Lakers or Thunder (who I think are going to be legitimately awesome) in a 7 game series though, but they'd be the favorites in the east. Oh, and I agree on staying away from Twitter, which has proven itself to be even more useless than I thought in this process. I always thought the only thing Twitter was good for was information, but it appears the only thing it's actually good for is misinformation. We don't know exactly what will happen because nothing like it has ever happened before. No one has had a player as good as Bosh be their decided #3 and no one has had 75% of their roster filled up with minimum salary guys before. The closest comparison we can come up with is the 2008 Celtics. They won 66 games and a title their first year together and might have had more if Garnett had a few more prime seasons in him. Let's look at their actual roster that first year: PG- Rondo in his second year, only averaged 10/4/5, Eddie House SG- Allen, Tony Allen, James Posey SF- Pierce, James Posey PF- Garnett, Powe, PJ Brown C- Perkins, Davis How good was that supporting cast? Rondo hadn't broken out yet, and we know his jumper has the potential to break backboards. Perkins wasn't exactly a low-post force, averaging 7/6 in 25 MPG. Posey was a solid role player, but he played 25 minutes and 7 points per game. All of those big men can be/were basically picked up off the scrap heap, and Eddie House and Tony Allen aren't exactly mind-blowing either. Another thing I'd like to point out: Pierce, Allen and Garnett averaged 36, 36 and 33 minutes respectively. They had plenty of chances to rest when they were blowing teams out, and they clinched VERY early. At least to me, it looks like the Heat could be pretty comparable, especially after a year or two of adding MLE salary players. I see a few key differences right now: -The Celtics interior defense is much better. I think that's their biggest issue right now. Bosh isn't anything close to Garnett on the defensive end, and Perkins gave them a big body that could defend centers. -Allen and Pierce are much better outside shooters than the Miami stars, allowing them to spread the floor easily. This is a major issue, but could easily be solved with the MLE down the line. Someone like a Mike Miller or Kyle Korver would improve things greatly. -On the flipside, the Heat duo would feature the two most unstoppable drivers in the league and they'd live at the free throw line, something that would serve them well night in and night out. The Celtics weren't anywhere near as strong on the drive and hit a lot of jumpers (though they obviously got by because they hit them a lot of nights and played great D). -The Heat also have stronger ball-handlers on the wings, reducing the need for a serviceable point guard. Allen and Pierce were okay, but not really the kind of guys you want running your offense. James and Wade both have significant experience doing it. To summarize, if they add any kind of shooters/size up front and stay healthy, they're likely a 55-60 win team much like the Celtics were. Winning in the playoffs would be another story as they currently have no answer for Dwight or the Lakers.