ZoomSlowik

Definitely doesn't make sense. Smith actually has potential.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 06:54 PM) (1) $15 million/year is not "insane" by any stretch of the imagination. That's what a well-past-his-prime Randy Johnson is making. IIRC, Vazquez is getting paid something like $13 million in the last year of his deal. Andy Pettitte, who is comparable to Buehrle in terms of talent, but older and has more injury problems, is getting paid just under $16.5 million this year. Mussina, another very-good-but-not-elite pitcher, has averaged around $18 million/year for the past three seasons. If Steinbrenner was willing to give a past-his-prime Moose that type of money, he'll gladly give it to a 28-year-old Buehrle as well. (2) Buehrle is going to test the open market, just like Paulie did. He'd be stupid not to. I agree that the Sox (or Cardinals) may be able to get him to come down to 5/$65 mil at a hometown discount. That's an average of $13 million/year, which is Vazquez money. (3) I'm really not buying the "power pitchers get more money" argument with regard to Burnett. Any GM worth a damn is going to pay significantly more for a consistently-good, workhorse, injury-free finesse pitcher who is a good teammate and contributed heavily to a WS title than someone like Burnett who has only thrown 200 innings twice in six years as a starter, has been hampered by injuries (including reconstructive elbow surgery), has put up good-but-not-great numbers, has never won anything, and was kicked off of his team for bad-mouthing his teammates and coaches. 1) Vazquez and Mussina were both signed a while ago, back when contracts were even more ridiculous. Plus neither Vazquez or Pettitte are getting those kind of totals over the life of the contract, they're only getting it for one year. Pettitte made $5.5 mil the first year and only made $8.5 mil last year. He only gets the ridiculous money for this year ($17.5 mil). Vazquez averages just over $11 mil. There are a few guys making that much, but that doesn't mean that suddenly Buehrle and Zito are going to get over $13 mil per year. Most of those guys were dominant pitchers at some point or another (Schilling, Johnson, Martinez, Mussina, Brown, Hampton). 2) So now you can read his mind? He's said that he wants to come back, so if he can get a fair deal I don't see why he wouldn't. There are an awful lot of stupid players in the league if re-signing before hitting the market is your criteria. 3) That hasn't been the case thus far. Pettitte was the best finnesse pitcher in recent years, and he got just over $10 mil a year. Plus, as many have said, not all GM's are competent. QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 07:10 PM) I agree that many gm's will learn from what has happened in regards to Burnett, Vazquez, and some other "stuff" pitchers who have not fulfilled their potential. We have already seen the gears shift as more durable pitchers begin to see their payday. Guys like Paul Byrd, Jason Johnson, and even to some degree Esteban Loaiza- known as "innings eaters" got money they might not have dreamt of getting 3-4 years ago. This offseason and the next, guys like Zito, Buehrle, and to a lesser extent now Mulder will test the market and we will all see if they get contracts equivalent to that of what Burnett and Vazquez received. The only problem with that is that the guys you mentioned haven't been that great either. A lot of pitchers have been getting a lot more than they should, regardless of their stuff. I don't really see that affecting things. They probably will actually get slightly better than those contracts. Both of those guys signed for about $11 mil a year. I've already said that I think Buehrle and Zito will get $12-13 mil per year, since they're both proven successful pitchers. I just don't see them getting a whole lot more than that.

Just my 2 cents Jas, but I'd ditch the US Soccer sig for a while.

2 more people and we can do league assignments with the "early bird" group.

It's back!!!

QUOTE(beck72 @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 04:44 PM) I'll put you down as a yes. But you can take yourself off at anytime I'm not that worried about the Detroit series either. The pressure is on them, really not the sox. They have to prove they can beat the Sox. The sox will show up, ready to play IMO. Don't worry, I won't be going anywhere.

I'm not worried yet, although clearly the pitching needs to get better. Call me crazy, I like our chances in the Detroit series. The matchups are Garland/Robertson, Vazquez/Bonderman, and Contreras/Rogers. Obviously that middle one is an issue, but I think we can win the other two. Another interesting thing about our record: we seem to struggle against teams that can hit more than teams that can pitch. Look at the teams that we have losing records against: Boston, New York, Cleveland, and Tampa Bay. Those teams can put up some runs (well, not Tampa Bay most of the time), but don't exactly have the most competent pitching staffs. On the other hand, we're 12-2 against the top 3 teams in the AL in ERA, which are Detroit, the Angels, and Oakland. It seems like our problems come against teams that can slug with us. I thought that was a bit weird. The only problem with that is that the Yankees are also 4th in ERA, and Detroit is 6th in offense.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 04:02 PM) Paulie might have been able to get 5-$70 from the Orioles had he really pushed them. Supposedly they told him they were willing to go higher, but he just didn't want to play there. And I for one think someone is going to be pushing $70 or more for Zito. I just don't see it, unless someone wants to give him 6 years. That's a lot to pay for a guy that isn't one of the most dominating pitchers in the league. Someone along the lines of Santana, Oswalt, Zambrano, or Peavy I could see, but that'd be a serious mistake is someone gives Zito that much. He's been pretty good most of his career, but rarely has he been a dominant ace.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 03:29 PM) Comparing Beltran and Paulie to a consistently-good left-handed starting pitcher is apples and oranges. If you think that Buehrle is going to settle for the same contract as A.J. Burnett (a pitcher that he's trumped in just about every aspect), you're out of your freaking mind. I'd be absolutely shocked if Mark settled for anything less than 5 years/$65 million. That's what it'll probably take to sign Zito and is probably where Buehrle's negotiations will start. That wasn't my point. My point was that you can't buy any of the contract talk out there. $15 mil a year for a pitcher is insane and it'll take a very good pitcher to earn that kind of money, better than anyone that will be out there. There's also a difference between Buehrle and Burnett. Burnett got his contract on the open market. We're re-signing him, which typically means that you get him for less than market value. Johan Santana signed for 4-40 a while ago, even though he probably could have gotten 5-70 easily. If he hit the open market, that's what I think Buehrle probably would end up with, however I don't see us letting that happen. Even that might be a little bit of a stretch, given he doesn't have the greatest stuff and doesn't have a history of dominance like the other $12-mil-plus pitchers. Finesse pitchers don't seem to get quite as much money as your fire-balling potential aces.

Very few starters have gotten more than $12 mil a year in recent history, even with the market being ridiculous. After the debacles with Mike Hampton, Chan Ho Park, and Denny Neagle, you're just not going to see that very often. You'll only see top guys or potential top guys getting that kind of money recently. The only ones that got that much in the last couple of years were Curt Schilling, Pedro Martinez, and Bartolo Colon coming off a Cy Young season. I don't see people giving pitchers too much more than that unless we're talking about one of the top 5 starters in the game. That said, I think Zito probably gets $12-13 mil this off-season. He's pitching well and he has an impressive resume. The 5-75 talk is just crap though. Remember, people were throwing out 10-200 numbers for Beltran and 5-75 for Paulie. Projections are almost always going to be a bit high, at least now. Buehrle would probably get something similar to Zito, and I wouldn't be surprised if he signed a 5-55 extension at some point.

Looks like the transfer frenzy is getting started... The sharks are circling Some serious talent in there. What's the over/under on guys that end up somewhere besides Chelsea and Real Madrid, 2?

Bumping this again. Still several spots still available.

QUOTE(Felix @ Jul 14, 2006 -> 09:01 PM) I think that a lot of the players have clauses in their contracts that voids the contract if the team gets relegated, meaning most would be playing elsewhere next year. I could be wrong though. Interesting, I didn't think about that. That would obviously change things.

I'm not entirely sure how many of you care, but Juventus, Lazio, and Florentina have been relegated to the second division. Those teams and AC Milan were also docked a varying number of points in the standings. ESPN Article Interesting that they decided not to relegate AC Milan as well. Maybe they felt that it would be unfair to the rest of the second division to send two Serie A powerhouses down. It appears that they really went after Juventus, they were penalized a whopping 30 points. That's a lot of ground to make up to get back to Serie A, but with their roster I'd imagine they'll make that up fairly quickly in the second division.

QUOTE(SoxFan76 @ Jul 14, 2006 -> 11:02 AM) Forget about the bullpen, we all know it needs improvement and that has been beaten to death. Besides, bullpens are usually a crapshoot. Going in, you usually know who your #1 and 2 are going to be, beyond that you never know. I'd like to see an upgrade at the leadoff spot. Podsednik has been good, not great for this team. He can't steal like he used to, and his OBP isn't THAT great. .350 ain't bad, but it could be better. I've grown tired of Podsednik lately. He's a great guy, but I think the Sox can do much better. I'd like to see another legit ace come into the equation. I'm sorry, I love everything that Buerhle has done for this team the last 6 years, but I see him as a really good number 2. I don't see him as an ace. I'm not asking for Liriano/Santana, but I'd like to see a legit ace replace Vazquez in the rotation. Unfortunately, that is easier said than done. Money talks. (oh yeah, and EVERY team wants a legit ace to replace their 5th starter, haha) You're right, it's a lot easier to say that we'd like to make those upgrades than to actually get them done. Quality leadoff men and ace starters are both in short supply and high demand. There aren't any of the former in FA, and those in the latter category are less than stellar and would cost a ton. Zito is probably the only real upgrade. We'd have to give up a ton in trade to get those kind of pieces. One of our starters is almost certainly going to be dealt this off-season IMO. My bet is that it's Garcia. He's only got one year left and his stuff clearly seems to be in decline. I don't see us giving up on Vazquez or Garland. The former is our latest reclamation project (so he'll probably get some time), and the latter is by far the youngest in the rotation. B-Mac gets the open spot, which opens up some payroll. Our rotation would still be stronger than the majority of the league with Contreras and Buehrle up front and Vazquez, Garland, and B-Mac filling it out. I think the bullpen is going to see only minor changes. Jenks, Cotts, and Thorton all will be back, and I just don't see us overpaying for a big time reliever. We might add another reliever somewhat along the lines of Politte and Hermanson.

Yes you can and I highly recommend it. I love our setup.

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Jul 10, 2006 -> 10:40 PM) I find it hard to believe that the Reds would trade one of their best starters, when the main weakness on that team is pitching. By trading Griffey, they can open up a spot for Denforia and save a lot of $$$$ which they can then put into some more pitching from FA. I have a feeling Carl Pavano could possibly be involved, if the Yanks paid some of his deal. Pavano definitely makes some sense, that's kind of like the Vazquez for Johnson situation. The only problem is that it's probably going to be hard to trade him while on the DL.

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Jul 10, 2006 -> 10:31 PM) Yes, he was clearly making a joke. A joke that has been played out so thoroughly on this website that everyone should instantly recognize it. Well, it was the first time I ever saw it outside of the Sox rumors, and didn't seem to make much sense in this case.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jul 10, 2006 -> 10:22 PM) Where would he play? You're kidding, right? Their starting OF in the last game before the break was Melky Cabrera, the ancient Bernie Williams, and Kevin Thompson. Sheffield might be out for the year, and Matsui could take a while to get back on track.

Griffey is the only guy that makes sense. It's gotta be someone with a monster contract that the Yankees can eat, because they're short on solid minor leaguers.

QUOTE(Damen @ Jul 10, 2006 -> 03:26 PM) I think you're misreading the criticism here. I think most everyone here is excited about the first half, and what this team has accomplished. But there's a major difference between expecting the most expensive rotation in baseball not have 4 of 5 pitchers over 4.00 and 3 of 5 at or above 5.00, and expecting sub 2 era's. As for the .400 BA's, has anyone here said that? If you can't make your point without strawmen, then you don't have a point. White Sox rotation= $39.5 mil, and we aren't paying some of that. Yankees rotation= Just under $41 mil for their current rotation of Johnson, Mussina, Wright, Chacon, and Wang. That doesn't count another $8 mil from Pavano, who is on the DL. Doesn't really change the point, but they aren't the most expensive rotation.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jul 10, 2006 -> 11:39 AM) Yesterday's preformance by the pen was nothing short of spectacular. 13 IP 2 ER, and both ER were given up by Jenks in his third inning of work. Imparticular, where the hell did Cliff Politte find that change up? That pitch had some incredible movement on it, and if he can throw it for strikes like yesterday, it doesn't matter if his FB is 91 or 96, he is going to be really hard to hit. All of the sudden, I actually want to see more of Cliff, if he is does indeed have that pitch now. I'd still try to avoid putting Cliff in pressure situations for a while. He had much better control than he's had in a while, and Dye bailed him out on that liner to right big time. That changeup does give me some hope though. I don't know where it came from, but it looked pretty nasty. If he can throw that consistently without tipping it, that helps a ton. His slider has been mediocre at best, so having a solid secondary pitch like that will help him get by with less velocity on his fastball.

QUOTE(Beltin @ Jul 10, 2006 -> 01:12 PM) With last year's title and the additions of Thome and Vazquez, I think expectations were higher than second place to the Tigers (not to mention several stinkers from our first, second, fourth and fifth starters). I give them a B+ at this point primarily because I am not really confident of another title if the playoffs started today and the Sox were entering as the WC. You can't really blame the Sox for how the Tigers are playing though, they're just ridiculous right now. We've been pretty good as well, it just so happens that the only team playing better so far is in our division. I'd say somewhere in the B+/A- range, although if expectations weren't so high it might be higher. Contreras and Buehrle have been pretty good most of the year, and the bullpen looks solid as of late, outside of Cliff. The back end of the rotation is the only major concern I still see, and even there Garland seems to be making strides in the right direction. This team looks like one of the best in baseball and is a major threat to go back to the World Series.

No way this happens, Kenny would essentially have to make three deals, otherwise we'd have 6 rather expensive starters.

If he can get useful players for AAAA players like Borchard and Baj, I'm sure he can find a fringe contender desperate enough for bullpen help to take Politte. On a side-note, when did he suddenly figure out how to throw a changeup?