ZoomSlowik

That seems like a lot, but you know damn well someone would give it to him in the off-season (probably back-loaded so the Bulls couldn't match).

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Oct 31, 2012 -> 02:12 PM) Good God. He really lucked out by getting traded to a team that had their designated player exception available. OKC used theirs on Westbrook, so he couldn't get the 5th year (teams making a qualifying offer couldn't go to 5 either).

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Oct 31, 2012 -> 12:50 PM) Is Eric Gordon ever healthy? Nope. Too bad, the guy can play. He'll be reaching Greg Oden territory with another year or two like this.

A much more long-winded summary of my thoughts on the Harden trade.

Houston's team is still awful, but that has more to do with dumping two starting-caliber point guards and their best big man and replacing them with a marketing campaign and the Bulls' fourth best big man.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Oct 28, 2012 -> 11:16 PM) I'm actually really intrigued by Lamb You've got a depth chart of... Westbrook/Maynor Thabo/Martin/Lamb Durant/PJIII Ibaka/Collison Perkins/Thabeet I know Martin is expiring, but I feel like Lamb is the odd man out. It would make no sense to trade him, but I wish they would. I'd keep Lamb since he's probably their Thabo-replacement as their defensive stopper and they're hoping he develops some offense. They could definitely use someone that's going to help them sooner rather than later though, they've got 4 years before Durant is an unrestricted free agent. I'd definitely be trying to flip PJIII and a pick or two for a young stud/really good prospect on a rookie deal (Enes Kanter as a somewhat realistic option?). If I could somehow get a top-5 pick in 2014, I'd love to get my hands on that since it's probably a good class.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Oct 28, 2012 -> 11:03 PM) Zoom, I admit I can't see you when it comes to the money side of the game. I checked hoopshype. I thought Harden was a straight up FA after this year. I was wrong there. Still, I don't believe Harden is as good as you make him out to be. He's got the crazy look and has flourished in a 6TH man role. Therefore I think he's overrated. He's not Kobe, Wade, or even healthy T-mac, Vince or Ray Allen, IMO. But in this day and age, where advanced stats have become more maintstream, Harden looks like a god. And I love advanced stats. I see where the Thunder are coming from: 1: they don't want to deal with the distraction that would come with Harden's long-term future up in the air. 2: they're trying to build a sustainable juggernaut. They're not selling out for 1 or even two years (aka they've got two stars and a semi-star already locked up. They feel they can replace Harden or come close on the cheap). 3: you're picking on Kevin Martin when his value is down due to an injury-plagued year in a short, f***ed up season. 4: they're not the lakers or any of the other teams you named. You've got the spurs. but they've never had multiple max guys. Again, they're trying to build a 5-6 year juggernaut. I never claimed he was as good as any of those guys at their peak. However, look at the shooting guard position right now, it's pretty weak. Who's #3 behind Kobe and Wade? There isn't really a clear answer right now. I'm not saying it's Harden, but he was awesome last year. If he plays anywhere close to that in a bigger role in Houston, he might be #3. Guys that can create their own shot aren't all that common, and guys that don't need to dominate the ball the entire game to put up points are rare too. He scored 16.8 last year in 31 minutes on only 11 FG attempts. That's pretty damn good. He also only has 3 years under his belt and just turned 23. He's doing this very early in his career, even in his second year he was showing significant potential. As for Martin, when does he ever have a non-injury plagued year? That's part of the deal with him. He had the same kind of season in 09/10 and you can't use the lockout excuse for that one. If he's not making jumpers or getting to the line, he's just not very useful. Harden can actually make plays in the pick-and-roll and make SOME plays as a passer while offering the same scoring ability. They traded the best player in this deal. In the NBA, you lose the vast majority of the time when you do that. They'd never make this deal for basketball reasons, it's all financially motivated. They made their team worse this year and likely next year (Martin gone and Lamb/Jones/picks still developing) in the hopes that they can fill some holes down the road. It's possible that it's not going to be a big enough drop-off to matter, but they're still giving up a young, proven NBA producer for a stop-gap and some future pieces. They may win out in this deal if those young pieces work out. It's WAY too early to grade that portion of the deal though. They've hardly guaranteed that they have "a sustainable juggernaut". If anything, they're giving up on the sure thing by trading the third best player from a team that made two deep playoff runs. 75-80% of non-lottery first rounders aren't any more than role players and even with lottery picks outside of the top-5 it's a 50/50 proposition. Nobody hits on every pick. I'm not even saying it's a clear loss right now. What I am saying is I don't see how you can say it's a win so far. Right now the biggest impact this trade has had is on Clay Bennett's wallet.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Oct 28, 2012 -> 05:46 PM) Manu has never made max money. He's actually turned down less money to stay in SA. Harden wanted no part of that. That's not really relevant to the issue. The Spurs got lucky and signed him to a reasonable deal before Manu became Manu. He signed for six years in the 2004 off-season after his second year where he shot 41.8% from the floor and averaged 12.8-4.5-3.8. He got a lot better after that. His most recent deal was for $13 million a year, which is about market value considering he was 33 at the time, not 23 like Harden.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Oct 28, 2012 -> 05:45 PM) This is all moot. As word is Harden is set to sign a 5 year, $78 million dollar contract extension with the Rockets. In other words, Harden wanted to get paid. And that's fine. But how many teams in the league have 3 max players and another near max player? OKC offered Harden 4 years and 55.5 million and he turned it down. As far as Perkins goes, once Dwight Howard took his talents to LA, amnestying him was no longer an option. Perry Jones is a total project right now. Talented. But a project. Chances of him being ready to be a legit starter by next year are almost zero. And you're ignoring Lamb and the almost certain lottery pick (the raptors pick) that they get this summer. So they've kinda already done what you're advocating as far as the bench goes. They didn't HAVE to give Harden 5-78. The worst case scenario if they didn't want to give him a full max was matching a qualifying offer of 4-58 in the off-season. If Houston wants to throw around money like a drunken millionaire at a strip club, that's their perrogative (seriously, they're going to be paying $45 million to Harden, Lin and Asik in two years. Yikes). Edit- that number also doesn't appear to be accurate. From the recent AP article that basically everyone is running: Screw both parties if that's really all it would have taken to get it done! A "max deal" under the new CBA isn't what it used to be. They don't have to give these guys $17 million a year. The only guy that would be making over $15 mil for the Thunder next year would be Durant because of "the Rose rule". Their top-4 would be making just under $60 million next season, obviously going up from there. There are several other teams that are in the same range. The Lakers top-4 will be making like $75 million this year. The Nets will be paying their top-4 $63 million and that doesn't include nearly $10 million for Wallace. The Bulls are going to be giving $56 million to their top-4 this year. Hell, the Grizzlies are going to be at $54 million for Randolph/Gay/Gasol/Conley. The Heat and Knicks don't have a big 4th salary, but their "Big 3" are going to be making $52 million and $53 million respectively. It's not new either, Boston was giving nearly $60 million to KG/Pierce/Allen before they started taking paycuts, the Magic went nuts after their Finals run, ect. I'm sure I could find more examples if I looked hard, but the point is that wouldn't be an absurdly out of line total for a championship-caliber core. I was advocating going cheap on their role players with the assumption that they'd have two superstars, a good defender/rebounder with upside and an elite scorer off the bench. That kind of core gives you a ton of leeway with the rest of your roster. They made the Finals last year and mostly held their own against the Heat even though they were getting about 10 points and 10 rebounds COMBINED from two of their starters. They wouldn't need Jones (or whomever) to average 14-8, they'd just need them to not be an embarrassment. However, they got rid of one of those guys now. That means they'll need more production from their role players. They got away with 4 guys that were any threat to score last year (one of which was Ibaka, who wasn't terribly consistent) and just traded one of them. Now they need guys like Lamb, Jones and those draft picks to produce fairly early if they're going to avoid taking a step back. If Harden were around, they wouldn't need to strike gold again, just find warm bodies to fill a few needs with the vet minimum/late picks.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Oct 28, 2012 -> 12:23 AM) If they amnesty Boozer, they will have the money (sort of). They wouldn't have the money to sign anyone good. Rose, Deng and Noah already adds up to $44 million and the cap is in the high-50's. With the cap holds for the other 10 spots, they couldn't offer Harden anywhere near the max if those 3 are still there.

QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Oct 28, 2012 -> 10:36 AM) Honestly, I think Martin is better. He's more athletic, doesn't depend on flopping to get to the free throw line, and has proven to be a good lead scorer if need be. He suffered alot in McHale's system. I bet his advanced numbers end up being better this year. No way Martin is better. There's a reason Harden is going to get the max: a lot of teams want him. Martin's a fairly solid player, but he's basically the Luol Deng of shooting guards: they have different skill sets, but they're both decent but not stellar guys that won't get you anywhere. Harden was just absurdly efficient last year, he's basically a young Manu Ginobili.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Oct 27, 2012 -> 11:14 PM) Well, we'll find out this year just how good Harden is. He'll be the featured guy now. I can see Martin flourishing in Harden's role. I just can't get mad at the Thunder. They've got two max guys locked up and a shot-blocking demon with an improving offensive game locked up as well. It should come as no surprise that they elected to let Harden walk. You say they should've amnestied Perkins? Um. Then who their center? Collison? They should have let it ride this year and try to win a ring. They're not a tax team, so there wasn't really an excuse this year. Next year you match on Harden, amnesty Perkins and trim some of your multi-million dolar bench players. It's not like those guys are any good unlike the Bulls' bench. I'd rather give Harden the $14.5 mil a year than Perkins, Daquan Cook and Eric Maynor (which is actually close to $15 million). They can't really afford to pay $8 million for a defense-only center that's only useful against like 5 teams. Thabo can go the next year too, of course then you need to draft/sign a cheap D-guy to take the pressure off their two superstars on that end. You roll with a lineup of Westbrook/Thabo/Durant/PJIII or Collison/Ibaka most of the time, bring in the best big body you can get for the vet minimum for those rare times you need a real center (someone in the Joel Anthony mold) with Harden staying as your ace off the bench. It worked for Miami, the Thunder can do it just as easily.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Oct 27, 2012 -> 10:33 PM) Martin's one year removed from a 21.1 PER (same as harden last year). The guy is, what, 29? You say he's not good at getting to the line yet the guy routinely is right up there in ft attempts for a 2-guard (yes, i know they were down last year). Harden has become slightly overrated in my opinion. It was 17.08 the year before that and 16.60 this past year. That's good but not great. His attempts at the rim were way down last year (1.6, less than half Harden's attempts and less than Marco Belinelli) and as you said, his FT rate was way down as well. It's not a good sign that he stopped attacking the basket last year. Now he's going to a team where he's not going to get as many opportunities. He relies pretty heavily on made FT's and volume 3-point shooting to carry his true shooting percentages (which has admittedly been good to great for most of his career). His low percentage, jumper-heavy attack isn't nearly as good a fit for their team as Harden's overall awesomeness last year. He shot 70% in the basket area and made more plays as a passer while offering similar (better last year) foul-drawing and 3-point shooting than Martin, which are his two strengths. He worked brilliantly for them because he didn't need a ton of shots and touches to produce and the rest of their role players were offensively challenged. Plus as I said, they're only going to end up with Martin for one year since they're clearly terrified of the luxury tax. After this year, they have to count on Lamb and 2013 draft picks to pick up the slack.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Oct 27, 2012 -> 10:18 PM) I read 4/60. Anyway, I wouldn't want to pay my 6th man 15 million a year. I want to see exactly what the draft picks are. That's the x-factor right now. I worded it poorly. If they had waited until after the season and matched the offer like most teams do in this situation, the largest offer they'd have had to match is 4-58. As for the picks, it's obviously coming from this list of picks owed to Houston: So it's probably Toronto's mid-lotto first in what is looking like a horrible draft and Dallas' first either this year or next year.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Oct 27, 2012 -> 10:16 PM) How is Martin that much worse than Harden? I love Harden. But I doubt he'd be nearly as efficient as he is in a featured role. The Thunder are not looking at just 2013. A lot. Martin isn't nearly as good at putting it on the floor (which is important if he's going to come off the bench like Harden) and is a horrendous defender. He's also trending the wrong way while Harden is getting better. For the Thunder, it doesn't really matter what Harden would do in a featured role, it matters how effective he is as they used him (which was ridiculously effective).

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Oct 27, 2012 -> 10:12 PM) Yup. Harden wanted max money. After the Ibaka extension, that just wasn't happening. The Thunder are in this thing for the LONG haul. I love it. They offered him 4-52. Max is 4-58. It's not really that big a difference. Amnesty Perkins and it's a manageable roster.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Oct 27, 2012 -> 10:10 PM) OKC just got better now and in the long run. Damn Presti is a good GM. I mean, he got lucky hitting on Durant, Westbrook, and Harden. They could have all been busts, but damn they hit. And then stole PJIII. Scouted and got Ibaka. But the Perkins trade, getting Thabo (though Taj is fair value) and now Lamb? God damn Presti is good. How did they get better now? K-mart is far inferior to Harden.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Oct 27, 2012 -> 10:07 PM) Outstanding move by the Thunder. That organization knows what the f*** they're doing. I don't think they do. They got scared of future luxury tax payments (not even current luxury tax issues) and made their team worse. K-Mart is likely gone after this year (otherwise, keep Harden), so then they have Lamb and draft picks for one of their key players. The only way they can win this deal is if they strike gold again in the draft, and I don't think Houston will suck enough for them to get top-5 picks out of this.

The timing of this is really strange. It's not even a week before their first game. Besides the whole luxury tax thing, it's drastically altering a title contender with no time for the new guys to work their way into the lineup before the season. I'm shocked.

We've got a full 12 right now, so if someone on here wants to join last-second, let me know and I'll kick one of the randoms.

QUOTE (knightni @ Oct 23, 2012 -> 05:24 PM) This thread is full of irony to me. I get kicked out of the league that I posted the thread to start. You said you didn't want to participate if you couldn't make the draft, so I did that instead of waiting for you to remove yourself. I didn't want you getting stuck in case you didn't log-in to do that in time.

QUOTE (BigEdWalsh @ Oct 23, 2012 -> 05:17 PM) A part of me wants to drop out. I don't want to play in an 8 team league. The teams would be stacked, not fun to my way of thinking. But, I don't want to screw everyone involved over so I'll hang in there. Sure wish some more people would join up....fast. I publicized the league in an attempt to fill it.

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Oct 18, 2012 -> 01:53 PM) So, I went ahead and created a league. Standard settings, only thing I might change is roster sizes if we don't get 12. Link to the yahoo sign-up page. League ID is 81317 Password is jordan Just updating, still need a couple people for the draft tonight.

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Oct 19, 2012 -> 09:46 PM) Trying to get this filled up, Soxtalk Fantasy Basketball league drafting Tuesday night. League ID- 81317 password- jordan Gotta bump this. Drafting TONIGHT at 9:30 central, need a few more people. Season starts in less than a week. Yahoo Sign-Up link

I'll post here too... If the people signing up want it, I can do 7 central. However, most of the time the central time zone people say that's not enough time for them to get home from work and get ready to draft. That's why I generally make it 8 PM or later, it usually seems to work alright for people.