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QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Aug 9, 2012 -> 11:55 AM) He's on the same level he was 2 years ago when they lost, nothings ever written in stone...If Perry Jones plays to his potential OKC is gonna be be really scary next year too. A Westbrook-Harden-Durant-Jones-Ibaka lineup on the floor at the same time would be ridiculous! He relied on jumpers a lot more last year and completely disappeared in the finals. Also, Jones is crazy-athletic, but there's a reason he wasn't a lottery pick. He's still a work in progress, he wasn't even that dominant at Baylor.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 06:35 PM) I've read there is a lot of sex going on in the Olympic Village during the Games...it's pretty legendary, as I recall... ESPN makes the Olympics sound like a giant orgy. 10 to 15 condoms per athlete is an awful lot, especially when you consider that some of the athletes are underage/monogamous.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 03:17 PM) PG: Magic/West SG: Jordan/Ray SF: Bird/James/Pippen PF: Duncan/Barkley C : Wilt/Kareem/Hakeem I would have happily taken Hakeem, but Badger told me I couldn't take him since he was born in Nigeria.

QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 11:56 AM) I knew you were gonna find that lol I hesitated to post it. That may be the plan, I just dont see the point in signing a good young SG to a 1 year contract if it wasn't. I agree this thread is turrable right now. At this point there's nothing to say that isnt just total BS speculation/projections.....I've greatly contributed to this but you never wanna bait a jobless basketball junkie, I can go all day. He was signed for the vet minimum, it's not like they're treating Belinelli as a centerpiece. Really, he's probably just insurance for when Rip gets hurt/dumped for salary reasons.

QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Aug 5, 2012 -> 02:12 PM) Bulls have had fantastic team chemistry the last few seasons, a guy like Mayo who misses practices, and gets suspended for drugs doesnt seem like the professional Thibs would want on this team. But then again we did try to trade for him a few years ago so I'm probably wrong with that logic. With them only signing Bellinelli to a 1 year contract I'm lead to believe they'll be going after one of the stud SGs next year....We've all called this a lost year including myself so whats the point of throwing a multi year contract at Mayo when he could turn out to be a clubhouse cancer and there will be better options next year....yes i know "wait till next year yawnnnnnnnnn" For the god knows what multiple of times I've said this, the Bulls are not remotely in a position to bid on a stud SG next year unless they amnesty Boozer and dump Deng while taking no salary back. That second one is a bit of a stretch because 1) This team has usually been really attached to their own players, and 2) you have to find a team that's under the cap and willing to absorb basically Deng's entire contract. Oh, and also the most important part, 3) signing someone that's a big enough upgrade over Deng to also negate cutting Boozer loose. Unless they do both of those things, they won't have nearly enough space to sign anyone for over the MLE. In other words, we're having basically this same argument next year unless the Bulls actually grow a pair.

I can't wait for the drunken rant in the NBA thread at 3 AM! Have a good one!

QUOTE (RZZZA @ Jul 31, 2012 -> 10:51 PM) He showed a little bit of hanging back this year, there was a 20 or so game period when Rose and Rip were on the court at the same time, and all the other starters were healthy too. Our offense looked beautiful. Rose was just hanging back at the 3pt line, letting Rip handle ballhandling duties, and the ball was moving great and Rose was not being exerted 100% for the majority of a game. I loved it. You are delusional. Kobe Bryant was the only player in the league that had more used possessions last year. I give up.

QUOTE (RZZZA @ Jul 31, 2012 -> 10:41 PM) In 2011, Arron Afflalo's TS% was 62% and his 3P% was 42% amd his FG% was nearly 50%. But you know, Arron Afflalo is not taking over any games, and neither is Harden. These are guys you want to get if you happen to think Derrick Rose should still be the focal point of our offense, they aren't guys you get if you think Derrick should ease back and get a break once in awhile. They're guys who benefit off the drive and kick, just like every other player we have now. They aren't guys you toss the ball to and say "Here, create. Carry the offense." Don't get me wrong, we'd definitely be better with Harden or Afflalo playing the 2 if money somehow wasn't an issue and we could just plug them in. But they aren't guys who have ever shown themselves capable of carrying a team. I just think we need that other guy. Unless you're getting Lebron, Rose is going to be the focal point of your offense. Also, pretty much no one on the Bulls right now is built for the drive and kick. Korver was their only real shooter, now it's Belinelli.

QUOTE (danman31 @ Jul 31, 2012 -> 07:40 PM) Am I imagining things or did the rest of the world take a bit of a step back in the last few years? The other countries don't have the same depth, so if a key player or two gets too old or gets hurt, it's a bigger deal for them.

QUOTE (danman31 @ Jul 31, 2012 -> 07:27 PM) I watched a bit of the Olympic basketball today and was appalled at the lack of quality from the rest of the world. Spain might be the only team capable of making the NBA playoffs and honestly I think it would be close. Would any other country be able to get out of the NBA cellar? Cellar in the East or the West? All you would need to do is have at least one above average NBA player to be better than the Bobcats. There's definitely a big drop-off after the US and Spain. If you have 2 or 3 decent NBA players, you're a bronze medal threat.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Jul 31, 2012 -> 06:20 PM) I do request that warnings about ugly women be exempted from the spoiler rule.

QUOTE (RZZZA @ Jul 31, 2012 -> 06:10 PM) Let's put it this way: I'd rather have 3 guys on the team with a USG rate at 25 then 1 guy on the team with a USG rate of 30+ You mention the Spurs, but the Spurs have 3 guys with a USG rate that's 25+ every year. Duncan, Parker, Ginoblli, that's 3 guys who demand defensive attention. Having one guy with a USG Rate of 30+ and everyone else with a USG rate thats below 25 is not a recipe for success, generally speaking If we want to let Rose continue to be a 30+ USG guy, we need to get him another star with a high USG just like the Celtis, Spurs, Thunder and Heat have Our highest USG guys after Rose are Rip Hamilton and Carlos Boozer. Not good. For about the 4th time, usage rate is largely based on your circumstances. There just aren't enough possessions available for Harden to put up 18 shots because Westbrook and Durant are on his team. Playing with other good players drops your usage rate. Lebron's dropped by 2 a game when he joined the Heat, Wade's dropped by 4, Bosh's dropped by 4-5 from his typical ranges. If Harden joined the Bulls, he'd get way more chances to shoot with only Deng and the likely fading Boozer fighting him for the #2 option. Rose's would also probably go down slightly with someone else that gets assists and drives, though it'd still be well north of 25 since he's your point guard and your best scorer. When you have an elite guard, you're going to have a high usage rate. Guys that handle the ball and score are going to put up high usage numbers regardless. You want that guy putting up high usages rates, or you're going to have worse players carrying the load for you. Guards tend to have higher usage rates than big men since bigs don't handle the ball, that's why Dirk and Duncan don't crack 30 possessions used even though they're the focal point of their respective offenses. The Bulls don't have one of those. No one is suggesting that they suround him with a bunch of Kyle Korvers. We're talking about James Harden, a guy that scored 17 a game despite reigning in his shot attempts considerably. Side note: When basketball reference and hoop data reference "usage rate", they appear to use it as percentage of the total possessions used for the team. When Hollinger does it, it's the raw number of possessions that player uses in 40 minutes, which seems more useful. For instance, Rose actually had more raw possessions used than Lebron and Wade, but they both took up a higher percentage of the Heat's plays when they were on the floor.

QUOTE (RZZZA @ Jul 31, 2012 -> 04:43 PM) Do we really want Rose to continue to have a 30 USG? I mean that's Russell Westbrook/Lebron James type USG. Except we don't have Durant or Wade on our team. Unless we're getting Durant to play SG for us I don't see the sense in NOT trying to take the ball out of Derricks hands a little with a guy who can initiate his own offense reliably when he needs to. There's no way this kid can survive with a USG that high every year. It's not fair to ask him to. We need another ballhandler/penetrator not another guy who stands on the perimeter to chuck 3's. Unless you get someone better than Rose, he's always going to have that kind of usage rate. That's how the league works, your best players get the ball the most often. You just rebutted your own argument, Westbrook and Lebron still have huge usage rates despite extremely talented teammates. He's not suddenly going to start taking 15 shots a game.

QUOTE (RZZZA @ Jul 31, 2012 -> 04:30 PM) This is the crux of where we disagree. Do we really want to continue to be the type of team that needs Rose to take all the tough shots and initiate our offense to the degree he has been? I'm arguing no, that it will be more beneficial to us to have Rose take less shots and have a lower USG. Less responsibilities. Less weight on his back. You're killing me man. There are things called "roles" on a basketball team. You need guys that can handle the ball, guys that can shoot, guys that can rebound, ect. Good teams generally balance these things well. Derrick is a ball-handler and driver. The bulk of his responsibilities are to break down the defense and either get a good shot or find the open man. There's no question about what he's supposed to do in most situations. He's always going to be a ball-handler and driver. He's not suddenly going to become a shot-blocker and he's probably never going to be a big time outside shooter. Things that will actually make that job easier: Wing players that can hit jumpers to prevent collapsing defenses and big men that can finish and/or hit jumpers when they get the ball on a pick-and-roll/off a drive. A guy that does the exact same thing as Rose doesn't really do that. Giving Rose a bit of a break now and then certainly doesn't hurt. However, a guy that can't hit the jumper when they collapse on Rose does. A guy that forces Rose to play off the ball more does. A guy that forces Rose to do something other than break down the defense with the ball in his hands does. There's a reason you don't see guys play multiple PG's or three big men: it makes it a lot harder to fill the other roles on the court because you have multiple guys doing basically the same thing. Someone like Harden would make things a lot easier for Rose. He can hit jumpers when the D collapses and he still has the ability to drive and get his own shot. It makes Rose's job easier AND cuts his workload a bit instead of cutting his workload and putting another ball-handler in his way. Now if they could get someone like Westbrook, you can make it work with those talents. That's just a bad allocation of dollars though and causes holes elsewhere.

QUOTE (RZZZA @ Jul 31, 2012 -> 04:12 PM) It's not just a high USG rate that's important, it's also how efficient and productive you manage to be under those circumstances. If you have a high USG rate, naturally the other team is treating you like an offensive threat, that means they're likely putting their best defender on you, they're keying in on you with 2 guys at times, they're always watching you on the court. Can you be efficient under those circumstances? Can you stay on the court for more than 30 minutes per game? Can you draw a large sample size of shot attempts year in and year out, on a consistent basis? That's also why I would rather have Russell Westbrook than James Harden. Westbrooks efficiency is pedestrian, but he has one of the highest USG's in the game and the lowest %ast'd numbers. It tells me he's very, very good at initiating offense and no stranger to beating good defenses. I'd much rather have a guy like that than Harden, who is very efficient but does not usually initiate his own offense and has a very small USG, indicating he mostly goes up against bench guys and teams aren't keying in on him as much. You're really missing the point. We already have Derrick Rose. He's our high usage guy that takes all the tough shots and initiates our offfense. You need someone to HELP him, not fight him for the ball. We're not talking about a neutral roster that needs someone to carry the team on it's back, we're talking about the Bulls. If we had someone like Monta Ellis or Russell Westbrook on the floor at the same time as Rose, both guys would suffer. You can't have two guys dribbling and attacking at the exact same time, there's only one ball on the floor. That's also one less guy to space the floor and make people pay when the defense collapses on the drive, and all of those guys are dubious options defensively at the SG spot. Having two guys that combine for 40 shots a game (which is what you seem to want) isn't going to help you if they both have a TS% below 55.

QUOTE (RZZZA @ Jul 31, 2012 -> 03:22 PM) he played 21 games with the bucks doe...we really gonna judge a guy who was traded midseason and played only 21 games with his new team? When you suck that bad, yeah. Other, better players made the transition in-season successfully (Pau, Billups, Rasheed and Carter off the top of my head). If he had averaged 30 a game for that stretch, you know people would be raving about it.

QUOTE (RZZZA @ Jul 31, 2012 -> 03:16 PM) A high USG rate indicates a guy who has proven that he can be a #1 option. Thats exactly who we want, a #1 option who can be our #2 option. Someone who can take the game over when Rose is having a bad day. Another star to face the Heat. I think you're the one looking at the wrong thing. http://hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Manu%20Ginobili 2007 27 USG 2008 28.69 USG 2009 27 USG and elite efficiency to match. Weird, Hollinger has different numbers. Those ones on hoop data make no sense to me though. Look at Manu's counting numbers, he doesn't take signficantly more shots, free throws or get more assists than Harden. Again, Manu has never taken more than 13 shots a game. The difference between the two is negligible in terms of usage. All usage rate means is that you shoot the ball a lot. MAKING a lot of shots is what makes you a real #1 option. Would you really feel better about Harden if he were playing for the Bobcats and scoring 20 points on 17 shots? How many possessions you use is largely dependent on your teammates, just look at what happened to Bosh when he went to Miami. If all you want is a higher usage rate for our #2, tell Thibs to start running more plays for Boozer and Deng.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 31, 2012 -> 03:06 PM) My Q with him is "how much of this is because of where he's been stuck playing". He was far worse on the Bucks playing with Brandon Jennings.

QUOTE (RZZZA @ Jul 31, 2012 -> 02:53 PM) Big difference between Manu and Harden: Manu has elite efficiency with a USG rate nearer to 30. Harden has elite efficiency with a USG rate near 20. Thats who we need imo, a high USG guy whose %ast stat is low. Harden is the opposite of that I don't think you're looking at the right profile. Manu has never had a usage rate of 30, his career high is 27. Most years he's between 22 and 25. You absolutely don't want a guy with a high usage rate. Why would you want that when you already have Rose, who tied for second in the league in usage rate? Why would you want two guys fighting over the ball? Unless you're getting rid of Rose, you want efficiency, not usage.

QUOTE (RZZZA @ Jul 31, 2012 -> 02:49 PM) I'll think a lot more of Harden as soon as his USG rate climbs and he still manages to remain efficient. Right now he has no mid range game, he takes 10 shots per game, he's a bench role player. He's not comparable at all imo to guys like Gordon or Monta or even to Manu whom you just compared him to. Those guys have all been much more integral parts to their teams offense than Harden has ever been. Let's see, 6'5" quirky left-handed #3 scorer that doesn't start on a really good team, has never averaged more than 31 MPG, has never taken more than 13.3 shots and has averaged 10.7 shots for his career. Only has two seasons in his career with a scoring average over 16.5. No, Manu's career line isn't remotely comparable to Harden. I don't think you've ever actually seen Monta Ellis play. He doesn't even try on defense and he takes a lot of horrible shots. Ever since he decided he can shoot, his TS% has been below average to horrible. A lot of guys would put up points if they shot 20 times a game, but most guys have a conscience. He's a REALLY good driver, but the rest of his game kills any benefit you derive from it.

QUOTE (RZZZA @ Jul 31, 2012 -> 02:30 PM) I don't think Harden could ever be a legit #1 option. But we'll agree to disagree. Give me a guy like Gordon who's had higher USG than Harden has ever seen, and still managed to put up great stats over a guy like Harden who's only efficient because he hits his open 3's and is good at flopping and getting to the line. So you'd pass on Manu too then? He has basically the same profile but has been an extremely important player on multiple championship team. There would still be plenty of open 3's to be had off Rose drives, and he is an effective finisher as well. I don't really care how he gets his free throws as long as he does. I love Eric Gordon (ask Steve about that), but a lot of that is opportunity for shots. Harden had a TS% of 66 this year, he could take a massive drop with those extra shots and still be comparable to Gordon's efficiency. It would also help if Gordon could put together two seasons in a row without missing at least 20 games.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 31, 2012 -> 02:27 PM) I'm not sure a SG will be the answer to the Bulls problems. The SG position sucks right now, would much rather re-structure with a more offensively gifted SF or PF that has a different skillset than boozer and can play better D than to make some super backcourt. I'd say the one superstar that hasn't made his move yet that would put the bulls at the top would be Love. He signed a contract but already is discontent with the roster moves. If there's anything Kahn loves, it's assets to acquire to do nothing with. We just need love to get very whiney and say he wants Chicago. Otherwise he'll probably end up on the lakers in 2 years. Well, yeah, if you can get Love you do it. He's pretty unique though, he's a PF that can spread the floor and doesn't need a steady diet of post-ups to get points. If you got someone like Pau or Bynum, you'd still need to find someone on the perimeter that can make a few shots. I'm not sure how many answers you'd find at SF beyond Lebron and Durant. Most of the better 3's (Iggy, Gay, Granger, now Batum) are quite overpaid, and while I'd love Gallinari for his shooting, his contract is too big a bargain to be moved. I'd take those guys over Deng, but I'm not totally sure how much that helps you. Picking up Barnes or Lamb in the draft certainly would have been interesting, but I have no idea if that would have been feasible.

QUOTE (RZZZA @ Jul 31, 2012 -> 02:21 PM) Harden is efficient, but he's not a take over the game guy. He's efficient because he plays on a team with Westbrook and Durant and can get good shots. He hits his 3's and draws lots of fouls and is a good passer. But besides that, when has he ever proven to be a 1a type of player? He's a roleplayer. A very, very good roleplayer. But still a role player. Is a role player really who we want to pay max money to? Taking a big risk there. We need a guy who has proven that he can be the number 1 option before. Eric Gordon over James Harden all day and twice on sunday. And Derrick Rose is there to generate a lot of good shots on the Bulls. Your logic is weird. He does everything a #1 option does, but because he's on a really good team so he's not good enough for the Bulls. OKC is one of like 4 teams where he wouldn't be the primary scorer/shot-creator on the perimeter. They don't need him to be a "true #1" anyways, that's what Rose is for.

QUOTE (RZZZA @ Jul 31, 2012 -> 02:17 PM) I don;t understand criticizing Ty for not being able to guard 2's, then naming Harden as a guy you want at the 2. Harden is a turrible defender. Turrible. He's really nowhere near as bad a defender as Monta Ellis, and Ty Lawson at the 2 would be an utter disaster.

QUOTE (RZZZA @ Jul 31, 2012 -> 01:56 PM) I'm not saying we're getting him, I'm saying I want him. Who do you want? Don't tell me you want James Harden. He's never played anything more than a role player's role, he's never been able to take games over by himself. He can't defend. Every 2 guard out there has drawbacks and Harden is no different in that regard. We need a proven 1b type of guy, otherwise we're right back where we started in square one. We get deep into the playoffs, face the Heat, then realize we need another legit star player to take over games for us when they sweat Derrick. What does that mean? It means another guy like Derrick, someone who can go iso and get a good shot when he needs to. Someone who can beat his man and get to the rim and do something good with it. LOL, okay, don't take James Harden. He scored 17 a game this year on only 10 shots. Luol Deng took 4 more shots than he did per game and only scored 15. He was a PERFECT fit for OKC because he was highly productive and didn't get in the way of Westbrook or Durant. He can hit 3's and converted 70% of his shots in the basket area while drawing 6 free throws a game. He'd be an amazing pickup at the 2-guard. On a team like the Bulls where he could get 15 shots a game, he'd easily score 20 even factoring in a drop in efficiency. And he's a MUCH better defender at the two than the matador known as Monta Ellis and he's not a midget by 2-guard standards like Lawson.