ZoomSlowik

Is it too early to start saying "Thibs will fix him"? We're getting to that kind of territory before he even coaches his first game for the Bulls...

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 12, 2010 -> 01:21 PM) The way the article was written that I read about Paul's contract was misleading so I wasnt 100%. And damn NY really knows how to make itself bad through trades. I thought this quote from Simmons' "Lebronocalypse article was pretty damn funny:

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 12, 2010 -> 12:57 PM) Carmelo is a FA next year. Paul is a fa in 2011 as well if he doesnt exercise his player option. (At least I think that is right, it could be 2012) That means NY could pull it off next year as long as they keep a crappy team with only Amare on the books. Plus they could potentially get a high draft pick. NBA might have be in for some trouble. As for the Bulls, I think Bouldin may make the team and play a few minutes. He can probably be a serviceable defender against most sg/sf who are not to quick (ie Wade). Hes a pretty intense player who also has some decent post moves for a guard and was Gonzaga's best player most games. I thought he was a tool, but when he plays for your team you like that type of guy. Paul is signed through 2012, his option is in the 2012/2013 season. I can't imagine that New York has anywhere close to the assets to get him before that. Tony Parker at point is far more likely, but they'd still have to get both him and Anthony in at $30 mil or so (might be feasible). Also, Houston has the option to trade picks with the Knicks because they took Jarred Jeffries' contract, meaning New York is highly unlikely to get a good pick next year.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan99 @ Jul 10, 2010 -> 10:10 PM) You could definitely make a case for Melo over Rose right now as well. Edited that in, thought I put him on there initially.

QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Jul 10, 2010 -> 09:53 PM) Aside from it just being a terrible idea, I'm curious to what would be a fair return for Rose. My buddies and I were having this discussion a few weeks ago. Outside of Durant, factoring in age, contract, and ability, name me 5 more valuable assets in the NBA than Rose.... We'll have a better answer to that question after this year I think. Right now it's hard because it's only his second year and he's definitely not a top-10 player yet. If you had to make the call RIGHT NOW, I don't think you can take him over Lebron, Dwight, Durant, Paul, or Deron for sure, and you could probably argue 5 more years of Wade could be more valuable to your franchise than 10 more years of Rose. Carmelo would be a pretty close call I think as well. If he makes the leap to average like 22-5-9 next year while leading the Bulls to the conference finals, the list would shrink.

QUOTE (hitlesswonder @ Jul 10, 2010 -> 08:59 PM) They may not be able to do it for PR reasons, but realistically that strategy would produce a title-contending team faster than keeping Rose and Noah in long-term expensive contracts when Miami has a lock on the conference for the next 5 to 6 years. I wouldn't do it myself because punting away seasons seems lame, but I can't come up with argument that it isn't the best bet to build a championship team. That would be amazingly dumb. Why in god's name would you trade a 21 year old All-Star point guard with franchise potential? Do you have any idea how slim the odds are that you would get a player of his caliber back in the deal? This isn't the NFL where trading one elite player for 2 or 3 picks is a good strategic move, especially when any team with remotely competent management would make the picks lottery-protected for at least 3 years. Take a look at any trade for a star-level player in recent NBA history, the team trading the NBA player never wins those deals. Besides, Rose is only going to be 28 at the start of the 2016-2017 season, hardly on his last legs.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Jul 9, 2010 -> 11:24 PM) Needs: 3pt shooters and Low Post Scoring I like it, still have money left. Melo 2011 Um, no. They just pissed away $12 mil on two guys that do nothing but shoot 3's. They're right around $50 mil in salary, not nearly enough for Melo.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 9, 2010 -> 04:23 PM) I wonder if Melo would be the type of guy who would work out well with a coach like Thibs... If he leaves Denver, I'd be shocked if he didn't join the Knicks.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Jul 9, 2010 -> 04:10 PM) LeBron more often than not would rather pass it. I've seen more than enough games seeing him kick it out to Mo Williams/Jamario Moon/etc.. (even if they are open for a few seconds) for a three. Kobe never does that unless he is getting triple teamed (not doubled), and you'll see a guy like Fisher, maybe Gasol shooting the rock. I thought it was pretty obvious I was joking when I posted that, but I had to respond to this. How exactly do you explain James having the highest scoring rate in the league in clutch situations if "he would rather pass it?" He took almost 5 more shots per 100 possessions in clutch situations than Bryant this year and scored about 15 more points per 100 in those situations. Even if you extend it past 09/10, they were basically identical in points in 08/09 (admittedly Kobe did take 8 more shots that year), and if you go to 07/08 James had 4 more points/100 and two more shots. I honestly don't really have a problem with the "comfort level" argument with them taking the shot even if I don't agree, but it's another to claim that Lebron doesn't shoot when it matters.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 9, 2010 -> 03:30 PM) I don't give a damn about advanced statistics in this case. If there's 10 seconds left in the game and I need a basket to win, I'm givin' the rock to Kobe 10 times outta 10 over Lebron. Anybody who says otherwise needs to quit watching basketball and take up Lacrosse as a hobby or something. It helps that after he bricks it Gasol and Artest are there to put it back in.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan99 @ Jul 9, 2010 -> 03:18 PM) Kobe Bryant as a great closer, my favorite myth in the world. More like incredibly mediocre and overrated as a closer. http://www.slate.com/id/2255932 I'll add on to that simply by linking to this "clutch stats" page from 82games.com. Notice who sits in the #1 slot in +/- and points/48 by a good margin. Clearly that Lebron guy sucks when it matters

Man, I was just looking over the Eastern Conference, and I might have to take back some of my comments on how the Heat won't win 70 and the Cavs won't crack 30. There is some serious TRASH at the bottom of the conference. A quick countdown with lineups: 15) Wizards: Wall/Arenas/Thornton/Jianlian/Blatche A rookie PG, a proven cancer and three bad players. Yikes. At least they have Kirk! 14) Nets: Harris/Lee/Williams/Thomas/Lopez They won 12 games last year and aren't last. That says a lot. Bad wing players, Harris is injury prone. 13) Raptors: Calderon/DeRozan/Hedo/Bargnani/? No idea who plays center, and now their best rebounder/post threat is gone. 12) Pacers: Ford/Dunleavy/Granger/Murphy/Hibbert REALLY bad D, some good shooters though. I kind of feel bad for Granger, I really like him as a player. 11) Knicks: Douglas/Chandler/Gallinari/Amare/Curry? Basically traded Lee for Stoudemire. No depth (just Walker), no center, little defense. I kind of like Gallo and Amare. 10) 76ers: Holiday/Turner/Iguodala/Brand/Speights They look better than they are, probably trading Iggy. Too many SF's, Young is a starter on most teams. 9) Cavs: Williams/West/Jamison/Varejao/Ilgauskas Do they have a shot on further analysis? Have you seen these other teams? 35 wins might do it. They need a SF, Jamison at the 3 is less than ideal. 8) Pistons: Stuckey/Hamilton/Prince/Villanueva/Monroe Awful interior defense, but at least they have some legitimate players. 7) Bobcats: Augustin/Henderson/Jackson/Wallace/Mohammed or Ajinca? Kind of weird putting a team with S-Jack and Wallace as their two best player solidly in the playoffs. Would help if Felton or Chandler came back (the latter more because of that question mark at the C slot) 6 Legitimate playoff teams- Heat, Magic, Celtics, Bulls, Hawks and Bucks

QUOTE (thxfrthmmrs @ Jul 9, 2010 -> 02:10 PM) I am sorry, I have to fact check you again. You are totally wrong for not giving varejao his credit. He was in contend for the DPOY award since mid season and end up finishing second team all defense because of Dwight Howard, and he didn't receive enough playing time. It's totally not a stretch to call him one of the best defensive big men in the league. Like I said yesterday, everyone can look at stats and judge, but you actually have to watch the game to know about the game. if you want to downgrade the the Cavs team, just take the fact that this team finished with the best record in the league the last two years, you can't do that unless the team is talented, and with Lebron in the mixed, this team definitely has the talented to be the best in the league and win it all, but his team didn't win anything nor sniff the NBA Finals in those years, and I believe that was the first time that happened in a long long long time. Like many said before, Lebron is not a closer, that's why he needs Wade to take the last shot. He doesn't have the killer instinct of Kobe or Jordan, or even Arenas and Billups. He is not the guy to take the last shot when the game is on the lineup. He is not as great as people make him out to be when everything is on the line, and you can't blame guys like Mo and Jamison for that. I never said he was a bad defensive player, just not a really great one. He is nowhere close to Dwight, a true game-changing big man that makes his entire team better. Four other guys on the Cavs put up the same defensive rating he did, and they finished 7th as a team. No one would even know who he is if he didn't play for the Cavs. The Cavs won 60 games because of Lebron. He did basically everything for them on offense and was a huge part of their defense as well. That roster works entirely because of Lebron, without him they're not a very good team. Now you're just making s*** up on the "not being a closer part". Did he not single-handedly beat the Pistons by scoring like 20 of their last 24 points in the conference finals? Did he not hit a ridiculous buzzer beater against Orlando to win game 2 last year? He's just fine as a closer, maybe if his team was good enough to keep them in the game when he's averaging 38-8-8 like he did in the Magic series last year he wouldn't have left. No one can do it by themselves. A lot of it is Mo and Jamison's fault, they were ghosts in the playoffs. Jamison only averaged 12-7 against Boston and shot 3-16 from the arc while getting destroyed by an aging Kevin Garnett (almost 19 PPG at a 52% clip). Mo was 4-19 from the arc in the Boston series and only averaged 13 points on 41% shooting while Rondo was putting up 21-12 against him. That was after Mo shot 39.6% against Atlanta and Orlando the previous year. Lebron didn't have a good series against Boston either by his standards, but it's hard to win by yourself. That's the difference between Lebron and Kobe right now: when Kobe shoots 6-24 in game 7 of the finals, his team finds a way to bail him out.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 9, 2010 -> 01:51 PM) I find it AMAZING that LeBron managed to win 66 and 61 games the last two years in Cleveland even with "no help" as so many people like to put it. Well, if the LeBron nut lickers who say that are right, the Heat should have a win total in the low to mid 70's every year he's there, and they should win the NBA Championship every year. Good luck with that! Once you get above 60, every game you try to add is a lot harder. There's pretty much no margin for error if you are trying to get 70. I'm personally not one of those people that thinks they're going to get 70 and cruise through the playoffs, they're probably going to rest guys a bit the last few weeks and I'm not putting them past the Magic and Lakers quite yet. As for the Cavs' win totals, Lebron has an awful lot to do with that. I don't really care what the stats say, he adds like 30 wins to that team, maybe more. They have okay talent at best, but the one thing they did very well was surround him with shooters that don't need the ball and found a good gnat-like big man to harrass people in Varejao. If you have a superstar that is capable of making plays on every possession, that type of roster will work. The downside is that if Lebron has a bad game or two or you run into a good team where even if he goes for 40-8-8 you might lose (ie the Magic last year), guys like Williams, West and Jamison aren't going to be the guys that put them over the top. I'll put it this way, how many games does a lineup of Williams/West//Jamison/Varejao/Ilgauskas and Hickson/Gibson/Moon off the bench win? I have a very hard time seeing it be over 35, or roughly on par with the Clippers. I'd probably take the under. You have 3, maybe 4 above average players on that roster and none of them are top-30 players (maybe even 50, I'm not going to figure that out though). That sounds like a fairly weak team to me.

QUOTE (DrunkBomber @ Jul 9, 2010 -> 01:22 PM) I agree for the most part. It just shows that there are different formulas to build championship teams. You dont NEED to have 2 superstars in order to win. Its not like Detroit is the most appealing place to want to go play/live either so they had to make due. Another good example is the way San Antonio built their dynasty. They had their superstar in Duncan and added pieces over the years. I know San Antonio isnt as bad as Cleveland in terms of desirability but it also isnt Chicago/LA/Boston/NY. Tony Parker is a great player dont get me wrong, and Ginobili played an important role on the championship teams but neither is a top 10 player in the league and both of them benefited greatly from playing with Tim Duncan. Does LeBron not have the potential to be better then Duncan? Do guys like Jamison and Williams have less of an impact on games then Manu Ginobili? Is it out of the realm of possibility for the Cavs to land someone like CP3 or even someone who simply can give you what Parker gave the Spurs? I guess we will never know. I know its not as easy as just going to Miami and helping Wade build his legacy with the team that drafted him and thats the point. It might not have been easy but its certainly not impossible or even unlikely. Its not like the Cavs were bottom feeders. Theyve been to the finals and had the best record in the league the past 2 years. The Cavs were a player or two away from being perennial champs every year. The satisfaction of bringing one ring to his home city should greatly over weigh helping Wade win more rings in Miami. Also, look what the Lakers have went through to build their current team since Shaq left. I know Gasol is a superstar now but he was merely an underachiever on a bad team that he couldnt carry before he went to the Lakers. Playing with Kobe and being on a better team made him into a better player. Is it not reasonable to think the Cavs could have plucked a good player off a bad team at some point in the next year or so like the Lakers did? The rest of the Lakers roster is mostly good role players and then a successful gamble on resident nutjob Ron Artest. Ill even go as far as to use the Celtics as another example. Their Wade/Duncan/Kobe guy Paul Pierce rode it out there on some terrible teams and finally earned a championship. Garnett stuck in Minnesota for like 12 years before being traded to Boston and winning his ring. Id venture to say a lot of T wolves fans were happy to see KG get his ring too and werent in the streets burning his jersey. There are different ways to build championship teams and what Miami is doing is definitely one of them, but looking back on some teams that have won recently its wrong to say LeBron would never have won in Cleveland. A few responses... 1) Yes, Ginobili and Parker have a better impact than Williams and Jamison. Manu is an extremely talented player that probably would have been considered a star at least on par with an Andre Iguodala if he didn't end up playing 28 MPG for Duncan's Spurs. Parker had also been an elite driving guard, though I'm not sure he is any more. Those two guys are quite adept at creating their own shots with regularity and efficiency, Williams and Jamison not so much. 2) It would be very hard for the Cavs to add an elite player by trade or in the draft because they simply don't have any assets. 3) You're underrating Gasol a bit, he's an awful lot like Bosh. Pau had been a star player before he ever got to LA (not sure how he only made one All-Star game, injuries? Loaded western conference?) and was the clear best player on three playoff teams. He just didn't have much talent around him, as guys like James Posey and Mike Miller were key scorers for them rather than the bench players/fifth starters they should be. That trade to get Gasol was by far the lowest amount of talent I've seen given up for a good player, I don't think you can count on that happening again. 4) I didn't say he'd have NEVER won in Cleveland, it'd have just been really hard and a few things would have had to go right. I think he looked at the team Kobe had in LA and two guys he respected a lot in Wade and Bosh getting together in Miami and didn't like his chances. Yeah, you could argue it was the wusses way out, but if he had stayed and not won anything he'd basically be another Karl Malone.

QUOTE (thxfrthmmrs @ Jul 9, 2010 -> 12:58 PM) wallace was definitely not a top 5 player at the time, the only argument you have is billups could qualify as a top 5. Piston won with 4 above average players, and 1 great player. There was no elite player on that team. You can even argue that the spurs team in 2003 won with only 1 elite player, that year Manu was only a rookie, Parker was not any better than mo williams, David Robinson was in worse shape than shaq. Duncan was the only elite player on the team and that team was dominating. In 2005 Finals run, Spurs again only had the big three in Duncan, Parker and Manu. Parker and Manu being borderline allstars, similar to Mo Williams and Jamison, if not worse. 2007, you can argue the same case for the Spurs, though Ginobili and Parker became very good players that year. I am sick of people defending Lebron because he didn't have help. He had a multiple time all star in Jamison, an 20-9 threat on a nightly basis with good range, Mo Williams, a sharp shooter and replacement Allstar, one of the best defensive big man in the league in Varejao, a fading but still overpowering Shaq, and other solid role players in West, Moon, Hickson and so on. That team was as good if not better than the 2003, 2005 Spurs, and better than the 2005 pistons. It's funny that when the Cavs acquired Jamison, the whole bleeping media goes like oh Jamison is the best player James has played with, pairing him with Lebron, Shaq, and Mo will make the Cavs favorite to win the East and possibly get them past the Lakers, but when they lost in the second round, people had to again make excuses for him for not having a great team. like reading Woj's article earlier, Lebron knows he can't win on his own, he can't be the main guy on a Championship team, he needs a closer, and that guy is Wade. What a wuss. The Pistons probably had four of the top-50 players in the league at the time, including a defensive player of the year caliber defender. It was definitely a differently constructed team, but they still clearly had elite-level talent. I guess you have a point on the 2003 Spurs, I obviously didn't check basketball reference before making that comment and mistakenly assumed Manu was at his peak. That said, I'd still take Parker over any non-Lebron Cav. 2005 and 2007 Spurs you definitely can't argue that Duncan didn't have some pretty major help. You still have Parker, who is (maybe was?) an outstanding driving guard and Manu was one of the most talented guards in the league. Look at Manu's stats again, over his career he's averaged 15-4-4 in only 28 MPG because the Spurs often rested him for the playoffs. He was DEFINITELY an impact player that could easily put up 20-5-5 in more minutes per game on a weaker team. If you look at his PER, he has been in the 22-24 range since 04/05, which is on the level of an elite player. You are DRASTICALLY overrating this Cavs' team sans-Lebron. First of all, he had Jamison for about half a year even when you factor in playoffs. There's still 6 1/2 seasons out of his career without Jamison. He has some good offensive skills, but is not a good defender. Mo Williams is a decent player, but has disappeared in the playoffs and isn't going to create a lot of positive plays on his own. Varejao is a nice role player, but hardly "one of the best defensive big men in the league". He is a successful position defender but is not a game-changing shot-blocking type big man. Shaq is hardly "overpowering" any more, more like extremely slow. He can't even stay on the floor for more than about 25 MPG. And why do people keep saying "role players" like West, Moon and Hickson like that's a good thing? Those guys aren't even average NBA players and are highly replaceable. There's a reason this team is going to struggle to win 30 games next year without Lebron, it's because they're not very good players. Williams and Jamison were relatively irrelevant players on mediocre/poor teams before coming to Cleveland and that's what they will be once again.

QUOTE (DrunkBomber @ Jul 9, 2010 -> 12:34 PM) You can easily argue the Pistons that won a ring earlier this decade didnt have any ELITE players. Depends on your definition of "elite". None of them were top-10 players in the league, but Wallace was the best defensive player in the league, Billups was a top-5 point guard, and Hamilton and Rasheed were both in the 5-10 range at their position that season (though both had been higher in other seasons). They definitely weren't the typical championship team, but they also had four highly legit talents and a very nice #5 starter in Prince. They definitely had a far more legitimately good players than the Cavs, and Lebron still beat them in the conference finals.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jul 9, 2010 -> 12:29 PM) LeBron's age is a huge difference in this whole conversation. Who knows if Cle couldnt draft or acquire a future #2 guy for him. Shoot, people were already talking about CP3 joining him in Cle. It could have happened for him for sure. Unless they got a Gasol-level gift the way the Lakers did, it probably wasn't happening. The odds of finding a stud in the draft when you're picking in the 20's is extremely low, and they don't have nearly enough talented young assets to pull of a trade of fair value for someone like Paul or Anthony. The Cavs are/were in a very tough spot, they're pretty much capped out (yeah, I know they have $9 mil right now, not enough to do anything major), their team is mostly older vets or role players because they were trying to build around Lebron, and their best young player is JJ Hickson, a guy who MIGHT give you 12-8 in starters minutes. They were still competitive with him, but I can see how he might have been tired of trying to carry the team for another 6 years trying to beat guys like Kobe and Wade that have more help on their roster. I probably would have re-signed with a 3-year opt out option or gone to Chicago personally, but that's a seperate issue.

QUOTE (Chi Town Sox @ Jul 9, 2010 -> 12:10 PM) Your right, there is a big difference, but there are ELITE players and there are Good to very good players. There are very few elite players and there are very many good to very good players, either way you look at it, there are going to be some good to very good players on the all star roster. This would mean that they are an all-star, injury fill-in or not. So if Mo Williams makes the all-star team, that means he was in consideration to be on the all-star team all along, just missed it by a player or two depending on who the bench players are. I am not arguing that Mo Williams is this great player and saying that James has had amazing help, all I am saying is James has had some good players at his side at various times in his career who have been all-stars at some point while others are saying he has had no NO HELP. This is not true From a championship-winning perspective, he had NO help. When was the last time someone won a title without at least two elite players? You have to go back to Hakeem in 93-94 (which also happened right after the Celtics/Lakers/Pistons broke up and Michael retired, pretty weak year). I don't know when the previous time before that was, it was well before my time. One great player and a bunch of average to above average guys doesn't mean you have a championship-caliber core. It hasn't worked for Lebron, it didn't work for Garnett, it didn't work for Kobe, 99% of the time it just doesn't work.

QUOTE (Chi Town Sox @ Jul 9, 2010 -> 11:31 AM) I never said that made them better, Mo Williams actually put up better numbers before he had come to Cleveland and joined the All-Star team. An all-star is an all-star, you can't say that Z wouldn't have made the team if a Center was a different position, that makes no sense. I never said these players were amazing, but he has had a better supporting cast than what he is given credit for. He has had the decent supporting cast and all of the role players, the grindy Anderson Varajeo's, the three point shooter Daniel Gibson, the high flyer Jamario Moon. He just didn't get it done and gave up on it now, I am pretty sure he has had a big hand in the players they have gotten and he has helped decide who to go out and get. He should have stayed and finished the business No, an all-star is not an all-star. There's a very big difference between someone like Chris Bosh that's a potential starter in the game and someone that barely makes the roster because he is an injury replacement (Williams) or plays a very weak position (Ilgauskas). His first five years in the league, Ilgauskas was his best supporting player (besides Boozer in Lebron's rookie season). That stinks. His team won 50 games and made the finals with a starting lineup of chucker supreme Larry Hughes, Sasha Pavlovic, Drew Gooden and Ilgauskas. That's an extremely light group of talent. The last two years have been a bit better, but Williams is hardly a superstar and he had Jamison for less than a season. There's a reason that they still lost to Orlando last year even though he averaged 38-8-8 on the series: if he doesn't do something spectacular on a regular basis that team isn't going to win.

QUOTE (Chi Town Sox @ Jul 9, 2010 -> 10:42 AM) 2 of them are now past there prime, but Z was on the Cavs with LeBron in his prime and Jamison and Mo Williams have recently been on the Allstar Team so I never understood why people say he didn't have "anyone" Because he had Jamison for only 25 games plus the playoffs and Mo Williams was only an All-Star because he was an injury replacement after there was an uproar that "there had to be two Cavs on the roster since they had the best record." Mo Williams isn't an All-Star caliber player any more than Luol Deng is. Ilgauskas is decent, but has career averages of 14-8 and probably wouldn't be near the roster if he were a PF rather than a C. Just putting an "All-Star" game appearance or two next to a guy's name doesn't mean that they suddenly get a lot better. Remember that when the Cavs are struggling to crack the 30 win threshold this year.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 10:52 PM) If the Bulls hadn't signed Boozer, Al Jefferson probably would now have been available. He was available already...to clear space for Kevin Love. Seriously, I can't wait to watch the Timberwolves now. Rambis couldn't get Jefferson and Love proper minutes last year even with no depth, Beasley is probably going to be playing like 15 minutes because Kurt just HAS to get Nathan Jawai and Ryan Hollins on the floor. Beasley might top Sprewell.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 10:50 PM) STEIN_LINE_HQ Wolves-Heat deal, sources say, calls for 'Sota to absorb Beasley into cap space and send its 2011 second-round pick to Miami to seal deal Wolves just got a steal. Former 2 overall never given a chance to really get going in Miami. I would like that a lot more if they didn't already have like 12 forwards on the roster. Where is he going to play?!?!?!?

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 10:43 PM) Thanks, I just ask because during the DePaul thing B & B said he had a chance to be a top 5 pick if the one and done rule didn't exist, but have no idea if that was valid or not He's probably the highest upside player in the draft, one of those big men with amazing length and athleticism but doesn't seem to have put it together yet. He could go #1 if he dominates at Baylor next year or fall like a rock if he does what BJ Mullens and DeAndre Jordan did.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 10:42 PM) Totally different players. A lot more like Sean May That's not a bad one either, hard to say with those slow, undersized big men.