Kalapse

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Nov 16, 2009 -> 05:18 PM) The point I was making is that we are frothing at the mouth to give up our talent including PK for one guy thinking he is our savior. That's ignorant in my opinion. There hasn't been one mention that I read about what LAA is supposed to throw in this deal, which makes me believe if you can believe this three-way trade rumor is why they would even be involved? Is there any mention of this rumor on a LAA post site? Or for that amtter a SD site? Who said this, exactly? He'd instantly become far and away our best hitter and defensive player and if you're able to move Konerko his modest ~$5M salary would give KW a good chunk of change with which to work when filling the other holes in the lineup. Savior? No. Would he make our team substantially better in more than one way? Most definitely. I'm curious as to how much you think a mediocre 34 year old 1B is worth in this economy especially when you're pumping up against your budgetary limits already? I'll give you a clue: it's no where near $12M.

"NYY are not interested in signing Holliday. They'll talk to Boras to keep other bidders honest, but corner outfield not a priority for them." - Buster Olney

OPS+ has a bias towards home run hitters, the linear weights used to calculate OPS+ are out of whack. Just remember that when you're throwing it around in a debate.

QUOTE (BFirebird @ Nov 16, 2009 -> 04:05 PM) I can't talk for Kalapse...but given his salary, age, position and stats comparable to other players at that salary and position, Konerko has little to no value. You did a fine job.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 16, 2009 -> 03:52 PM) Wasn't disagreeing with any of that. I think I was just trying to point out how close their number are. And it's entirely within the realm of possibility that the next couple years, Gonzalez could be genuinely better. Close over a 2 year span in which Cabrera had by far his worst season out of the past 6 and Gonzalez had by far the best year of his career. That's dishonest.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Nov 16, 2009 -> 03:52 PM) I believe I said one could argue that he's better, and that he's a top 5 hitter in the league. And your argument is based largely on an assumption that his numbers would improve upon leaving a pitcher's park, something that does not always come true and something that never happened to Cabrera. There is no argument to be made that isn't based on conjecture.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 16, 2009 -> 03:46 PM) Cabrera's OPS the last 2 years; .915. Gonzalez; .913. He's not exactly better than him for his full career, but Gonzalez's numbers last year were just sick, and he's been trending upwards year after year. A 2 year sample size is just ridiculous.

QUOTE (BFirebird @ Nov 16, 2009 -> 03:28 PM) Kal...what do you think would be too much for an A Gon? Also, do you really see LAA taking on PK with no contracts coming back our way? If they truly like Konerko (his name has come up in conjunction with the Angels every year since '05) I could see them taking on his deal, it's only 1 year and they do have a substantial portion of their payroll coming off the books and not a whole lot on the open market to spend it on. We wouldn't get much out of it aside from salary relief. They sported a ~$113M and currently have ~$77M in obligations for 2010 and a nice crop of cheap young players filling a few positions, there's definitely room for Konerko. Too much for Gonzalez? I can't say for sure, it'd really hurt giving up both Hudson and Flowers but I'd do it, they wouldn't get much more from me if that were the case, however. I don't think I could pull a trigger on any deal that sends Floyd/Danks +1 or 2 to San Diego luckily I don't think they'd have much interest in either of them anyway. Hudson +3 prospects not name Flowers would be fine in my book, if they value Hudson that highly.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Nov 16, 2009 -> 03:13 PM) Why are we to ones giivng up all the talent? Whay aren't we talking LAA prospects here? Konerko is no thrown in/out to any deal and LAA has to give up something. Konerko has almost no value at this point, he'll provide you decent production from the first base position (right around league average if you're lucky) while making nearly twice as much as he should.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Nov 16, 2009 -> 03:09 PM) He carried SD too right to the bottom of the heap. One player isn't going to make our trip to the promise land especially if you trade away your prospects or top of the line pitchers He very well could with the rotation and supporting offensive cast we have now. In fact I don't see how this team could possibly win a damn thing without the addition of a big bat this offseason, the offense as presently constituted is awful not to mention the fact that he's a top 3 defensive 1B and we have an error prone left side of the infield. Oh and the whole flexibility that comes from your best player making $5M a year over the next 2 seasons.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Nov 16, 2009 -> 03:08 PM) I'm convinced Gonzalez could hit 50+ homers with a .400 OBP. The rarity of a player of this ability is stunning. No White Sox player has EVER hit 50 bombs, let alone with a .400 OBP. I get that, what you're doing is selling Miguel Cabrera short. He's now put up 4 huge seasons in 2 of the better pitcher's parks in the game. You also can't over look the tremendous value of a perennial .320+ hitter as it's become fashionable to do in recent years, he was also 3 years younger than Gonzalez is now when he was traded to Detroit and a far more polished offensive threat.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Nov 16, 2009 -> 03:06 PM) Boers just accused Gonzalez of being a roider. He said the same thing last week, basically he thinks everyone is on the juice, he accuses Albert Pujols every other day. And even if he is there's no reason to believe he'll stop juicing before he hits the open market 2 years from now so you should get his absolute best for the next 2 seasons.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Nov 16, 2009 -> 02:57 PM) It's what I do! Honestly, though, his road numbers are staggering. Yes, I am extrapolating road numbers, but it's quite obvious that Petco was killing him. His road OPS the last four seasons. 1.045 (27) .946 (26) .928 (25) .905 (24) Each of these years his home OPS was around .150 lower than his road OPS. Going from a hitter's nightmare to a hitter's paradise (we all know these two parks could not be more polar opposites) I have no problem comparing him head to head with Miggy, and given the differences (where you could expect Gonzo to park 50, easily - and he hits left-handed), I'd prefer Gonzalez. I've seen the numbers more than a few times, unfortunately it's rarely as simple as you're making it seem. You said Adrian would have more of an impact than Miguel Cabrera, I don't see how you could possibly say that with such confidence when Cabrera had accomplished substantially more in his career when dealt than Adrian has now.

QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Nov 16, 2009 -> 02:49 PM) I would give up Flowers in a heartbeat. AG is a rare talent...meanwhile, the downside options at catcher arent all that bad (new short term deal for AJP...or cheap defensive catchers, which we've been kind of waiting for anyway) The enormous value Flowers would have to the organization isn't totally based on the position he plays, it's the prospect of plugging a big time impact bat into the lineup for next to nothing for the next 3 or 4 years and under team control for 6. If Flowers fulfills his potential he'll afford the club tremendous financial flexibility (even with a few big contracts on the book long term) since hitters of his potential caliber tend to cost a pretty penny.

QUOTE (chisoxfan09 @ Nov 16, 2009 -> 02:47 PM) Does anyone think Peavy can be of any influence to sell Agon on coming here? I know he does not have a NTC but just askin. If he doesn't have a no trade clause then he has no say in the deal and no convincing is necessary. Also, it's not like Peavy spent 4 months pitching for the Sox, he was here for a few months and made only a hand full of starts, I don't think he's formed enough of an opinion or bond to be making recruiting calls.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Nov 16, 2009 -> 02:42 PM) Adrian Gonzalez turns 28 at the beginning of this season. He is peaking (as am I, given the thought of Gonzalez in the Cell). His road numbers over 162 games last season would net .306, .402, 55, 126. That takes into account s***ty stadiums he hits in as well on the road. Honestly, hitting behind Beckham and in front of (insert bum here), he could flirt with 60 homers with US Cellular Field as his home. He is an unreal talent... one of the top 5 hitters in baseball. He's more impactful than the great Miguel Cabrera, whom we slightly missed out on. I don't believe the rumor, but I'd love for it to happen. Anyone not on the MLB 25 man roster can be had in my opinion. Hold onto T-Flow, but feel free to deal any of the others. Both is a reach at this point. You can say that he has the potential to become a top 5 bat if he played half his games in the Cell but right now all you're doing is extrapolating road numbers, he needs to do it before you can say it and as of right now he has one real big season under his belt. As for Miggy; he has 4 .400+ wOBA seasons under his belt, Adrian has one and is actually a year older. I agree that the prospects of Adrian Gonzalez playing here is tantelizing and that he could absolutely explode but you're jumping to some major conclusions here.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Nov 16, 2009 -> 02:22 PM) How much do you want to bet Bernstein turns his nose up at this trade rumor That was basically the exact opposite.

QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Nov 16, 2009 -> 02:01 PM) Probably the scariest thing about GMJ inclusion here...as things stand he would actually... play for the Sox. 2009 - runners on: .326/.433 in 141 ABs.....scoring position w/ 2 out: .395/.519 in 43 at-bats. 4 of 7 w/ bases loaded. Granted being in that lineup gets you some pitches to hit all year. He was atrocious w/ bases empty. That really means next to nothing.

QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Nov 16, 2009 -> 01:47 PM) I'm totally in agreement that said people shouldnt overreact. But point being I think that Allen deal was the one prospect we'll deal for a low ceiling guy. Hudson and Flowers wont go anywhere unless it's a knockout punch. I could be wrong. It wouldn't be at all surprising if Tony Pena turned into a decent closer sometime in the next few years, that's not exactly a low ceiling guy.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Nov 16, 2009 -> 01:42 PM) Why's that? I'm sick of seeing former Sox prospects turn up in the all star game.

QUOTE (striker62704 @ Nov 16, 2009 -> 01:32 PM) We'd have Gonzalez for 3 years. There is an option for 2012. The option is for 2011. He'd be under team control for 2 seasons.

QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Nov 16, 2009 -> 01:17 PM) It is still probably better than anything else we were going to do. Even if it forces us to get a cheap DH, it's not that much of a downside. We get 3 solid young hitters in the lineup All of a sudden you're committing over $72M to 9 players in 2010 (this includes Viciedo), about $75.5M to 10 if you pick up Thornton's option, then you have to pay Danks, Quentin and Pena a substantial sum in their second year of Arbitration, if Jenks is still around he'll be making about $10M in his final year of ARB and Theahen maybe $6M in his final year and you have to go find a catcher since Flowers is now on the Padres and Pierzynski's contract is up and he's in his mid 30's.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Nov 16, 2009 -> 01:05 PM) But if it allows you to get Adrian Gonzalez for a couple years at $5M you have to do it. How long is GMJ contract anyways? 2 years and $23M left on that deal. If you pick up Adrian and Matthews and only shed Konerko from the 25 man roster and get no cash in return you're effectively paying Gonzalez $16.625M per year for the next 2 years since Matthews is just about useless (he's at or below a replacement level player and such players are by definition everywhere). So even though Adrian is an incredible value you're not saving any money in the long run, you're just adding to the payroll ($3.75 in '10 and $17.5M in '11) which actually makes him a less attractive target via trade.

QUOTE (striker62704 @ Nov 16, 2009 -> 12:40 PM) What if Beckham was going to the Padres? Would you still pull the trigger? Not a chance. Him being under team control for the next 6 years and cheap for the next 3 makes him far too valuable, anything else is at play though, the Sox are in desperate need of a sure thing on offense for 2010 if they wish to contend IMO and Adrian is certainly that.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 14, 2009 -> 09:41 PM) My opinion of him has gradually decreased over the past few years. And not that I wouldn't be excited about the guy playing here, but he's no longer a guy I would feel comfortable trading the farm for, nor signing him to a lucrative contract. Kinda just hope we take a pass on the guy if he is available. Even when he's at his absolutely best (I tend to believe we saw his peak this past season) he's just not an elite talent in my mind. He's very good but he has a great deal of short comings. If the Sox are going to sell the farm this offseason I really hope it's for a guy like Adrian Gonzalez and not Carl Crawford.