Kalapse

Outstanding. This is quite the coup.

Just ignoring all statistical evidence since I get why some would be hesitant to treat it as gospel, do people honestly believe it's possible for probably the slowest outfielder in the game to be even average defensively? A good read can only do so much, you have to have some kind of closing speed to get to balls. Just try watching someone like Alex Rios one time and you'll realize what we're missing out on, he's easily getting to balls that Dye has no chance on.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 03:46 PM) Over the past 3 years? Plus/Minus has him as the worst by a lot. Yep UZR/150: -31.0 Brad Hawpe -19.6 Jermaine Dye -10.8 Bobby Abreu

QUOTE (chw42 @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 03:38 PM) According to UZR and Plus/Minus, Dye is THE worst right fielder in baseball over the past 3 years and it's by A LOT. He has no business playing the outfield. That doesn't mean he has no business playing on the team. He's a very good hitter. Nobody in this thread hates Jermaine Dye or want him gone. We just think he should be a full-time DH. He's actually 2nd in UZR behind Hawpe.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 03:34 PM) Atrocious to me means he is a complete and utter stiff who has no business being on the team. That clearly is not the case in my opinion. An atrocious DEFENDER who has no business playing the outfield. Today was a perfect example of why he needs to be moved out of right.

QUOTE (GO CHI SOX! @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 03:23 PM) Contreras should only be pitching when Castro is catching. It seemed like the games Castro covered the plate, Jose pitched good. Opponents are hitting .207/.270/.318/.588 off Jose in the 8 games Castro has caught him.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 01:56 PM) I think part of it is because much of our fanbase is still in the stone age in regards to some of the more modern statistics/metrics. Many of our fans do not pay too much attention to OBP, Slugging, and by extension, OPS. While they understand Thome is a run producer, they are frustrated by how often he strikes out and how often he hits into the shift. He's not a flashy or colorful character either. Just goes about his business quietly and posts 35/100 every year with a .900 OPS. Yep, that's exactly what it is. People get hung up on the strikeouts.

QUOTE (knightni @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 01:47 PM) That's because Griffey was a seminal player. He and Thomas were the Michael Jordans of baseball from 1990 to 2000. If you grew up in the late 80s/early 90s, even if you weren't a Mariners fan, you were a Griffey fan just because of how great he was. Or it's because Jim Thome is under appreciated. Even when he was at his best in '06 people were hating on Thome, this is undeniable.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 01:42 PM) Jim Thome has been washed up 1000 times on this board since he's been a White Sox. That's a conservative figure. People can't wait until he's gone. He didn't get anywhere near the love a washed up Ken Griffey Jr. got when he became a White Sox. Yep, Thome is one of the more under appreciated sox players I can remember.

QUOTE (Tex @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 01:06 PM) I wonder what definition eveyone is using on certain words. Atrocious to me would be someone who would not even receive a contract to play A ball, regardless of their offensive skills. Based on my definition, Dye is not atrocious. Based on a different definition, say, not one of the top 3 defenders in baseball, he is atrocious. But these silly debates are worthless unless definitions are established. That's because your definition spans all players, mine for example only includes major league everyday outfielders and among everyday outfielders in the majors right now Jermaine Dye is in the bottom 3 defensively, he's a DH masquerading as an outfielder. I'd say that qualifies as atrocious.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 12:27 PM) This is exactly the reason I was hoping you would respond to this thread. It's fairly clear that Gordon is exceptional in terms of both physical talent as well as mental/emotional makeup. The kid has rocketed through our minor league system, experiencing major league pitching for the first time and mashing it, and learning a new position on the fly. One of the keys to me has been how he has handled his struggles in the field. The kid has made plenty of errors trying to learn the speed and angles over at third, and yet, he doesn't let it get him down. He doesn't take it to the plate with him. He has also been moved up in the order. He just takes absolutely everything we throw at him in stride. I'm all in favor of locking Gordon up long term. He has the "it" factor. Sign him up and get an insurance policy against catastrophic injury, and I think we take a lot of future stress out of our equation. One of the things they always talk about with young players that get fat extensions early in their careers is complacency and like you said he seems to be as mentally strong and competitive as anyone, so that wouldn't worry me in the least. I really think Gordon's camp and Rick Hahn will get to talking in the near future, I really see no reason not to.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 12:07 PM) Yeah, I understand that. I'm not trying to so much as duplicate Longoria's contract, but rather the concept of it. I agree, however, I think at least one of those 8-figure years needs to be an option year. I think I would approach Beckham with the same concept of the Longoria deal, but perhaps more guaranteed. 6 year $22 million with 2 club option years in the 8 figures ($10 and $12 million), taking out that first club option that offers the $7 million or whatever. So all in all, the contract would be 6/$22 with the potential to become 8/$44 should the club option years be exercised. I do agree with you, don't get me wrong. Low to mid 20's guaranteed is definitely doable. Though the fact that Beckham is still 6 years away from free agency after this year does muck things up a bit, ideally it would be a 9 year deal that pays him a little over $2M the first 3 years ('10-'12) to account for pre-arb then around $13M over the next 3 to account for arbitration and then like Longoria $30M or so to buyout his first 3 years of free agency with one of those seasons being guaranteed and the other 2 being club option years that need to be exercised simultaneously. A decent signing bonus somewhere around $2.3M could be in order.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 11:42 AM) Which begs the following question: Should Beckham's agent refuse to agree to a long-term deal such as Longoria's, instead asking for one such as Braun's, is it still in the best interests of the White Sox to sign Gordon to this type of contract? The White Sox sign Gordon to an 8 year, $39 million deal, the same as Longoria's, except with the 2015 - 2017 option years guaranteed at $7.5, $11, and $11.5 million guaranteed respectively. Well for starters Longoria's deal is worth $44M over the next 8 not $39M and Gordon will not earn a year of service this year so things are slightly different. If you're asking me if I'd sign Gordon to a 9 year, $44.5M deal today ('10: $.5M, '11: $.55M, '12: $.95M, '13: $2M, '14: $4.5M, '14: $6M, '15: $7.5M, '16: $11M, '17: $11.5M) I'd probably lean towards no. There really needs to be an option or 2 in there. *this is insignificant but I feel I must mention it; the '10, '11 and even the '12 salaries would obviously have to be a little higher than that, probably $550K, $600K and $1M.

QUOTE (Chet Lemon @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 11:38 AM) Regarding the mutual option, so it boils down to either the player gets a new multi-year deal or they leave? I never knew how they worked, I just figured he and the team would agree on $12 mil for '10 and let it ride. Both sides have to agree to pick up the $12M option. If Dye is willing to come back for 1 year at $12M and the Sox think the same of him then the option can be exercised and he'll be under contract for another year at $12M. However, this almost never happens since usually one side doesn't agree that the player is worth the exact value of the option on a 1 year deal. I really can't see how Jermaine Dye is worth $12M in this economy given that he's pretty much a DH at this point in his career and someone like Thome is probably looking at ~$6M next season and is outproducing Dye right now and Bobby Abreu (who it also can be argued is a more valuable player than Dye) just signed a 1 year, $5M deal this past offseason.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 11:25 AM) Well, that is pretty much what I stated in my post about some "catastrophic injury." My guess is, as you stated, such an event could be covered by insurance, making this difference fairly negligible. The more concerning difference, I would argue, would be the fact that those option years are not guaranteed against poor performance. Where would you put the odds that, if Longoria stays reasonably healthy, and avoids some catastrophic injury, that the Rays end up picking up the options? In other words, what do you think the probability is that Longoria's performance causes the Rays (or some other team he is possibly traded to) to exercise those options? Well, of course the odds are good but the risk is still there. Regardless of how great he looks right now I see a tremendous difference between guaranteeing an extra $28M to a player in his early 20's and offering that same money in he form of club options. Even great young players flame out and because of this the Rays are in a much better situation than the Brewers IMO.

QUOTE (Chet Lemon @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 11:25 AM) Is there a Mutual Option in '10 for Dye? Would Dye not agree to come back? I honestly don't know, so please explain. I guess it's financially responsible because Dye would be worth the money for '10 and letting Thome go frees up some salary (as would Dotel and Count's contracts). Trading for Dunn would be responsible to fill the hole left by Thome's exit. Having Dye DH part of the time and play corner OF the other part of the time over a season is more responsible than expecting to run him out and play in the field 150+ games. Yeah, it's a mutual option which means it won't be exercised (those things never are). I assumed you were referring to a platoon situation at DH. Regardless, Dye and Dunn really have no business playing the field at this point, I really have no interest in going through another year with one of the game's top 3 worst defenders in a corner spot, this pitching staff isn't designed to handle that kind of incompetence behind them.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 11:18 AM) It's early yet Actually the whole point is that it is early. If you wait too long you increase the amount of guaranteed money that must be included in the deal. The Rays sign an extension with Longoria 7 days into his big league career and get him for 9 years at $17.5M guaranteed, meanwhile the Brewers wait a year and have to shell out $45M, wait another year and Beckham's camp may not be interested in an extension given how close he'd be to arbitration. The idea is to lock him up real early in his career so you save a good amount of money and extend the time in which he's under your control and in return you're guaranteeing a young man financial security to last the remainder of his life.

QUOTE (Chet Lemon @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 11:05 AM) Let Thome go, keep Dye for '10, trade for Dunn, and have those two split time as the DH. Why would either player go for that and how is that at all financially responsible?

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 11:01 AM) The main difference between Braun's deal and Longoria's deal is that the last two years of Longoria's deal are club options, whereas they are guaranteed for Braun. Otherwise, they are remarkably similar in construction and value. Obviously, the fact that Tampa holds club options is extremely valuable for the club in case of some sort of catastrophic injury. My guess is the actual risk of that, however, is minimal. The overwhelming odds are that Tampa will exercise those options, making the contracts not so dissimilar. However, that is an important difference. The best approach is probably to begin with Longoria's contract and negotiate with Beckham's agent. Perhaps a compromise would be one where the White Sox guarantee one of those option years and keep another as a club option. Well, there's a huge difference. The Rays have 3 option years accounting for $27M that Evan can earn but that money is in no way guaranteed so if some horrible fate were to befall Longoria in the next few years the Rays are out $17.5M compared to the $45M the Brewers would have to payout if Ryan Braun had his arm ripped off by a bear tomorrow (I assume insurance would cover this but you get the point). That's a substantial difference in guaranteed money and monetary risk. There's a $28M difference in guaranteed money thanks to a complete lack of option years in Braun's deal.

Would Gordon go for this though? Longoria signed his deal before he had proven a damn thing at the major league level and because of this he only got $17.5M guaranteed. Ryan Braun on the other hand had 619 AB and a .970 OPS under his belt when he signed his 8 year $45M deal in May of '08. Now Gordon obviously hasn't proven as much as Braun had when he got his deal but he has shown a whole hell of a lot more than Longoria. The guaranteed money would seemingly have to be more than what Longoria got. Braun's deal: 8 years/$45M (2008-15) signed extension with Milwaukee 5/15/08, replacing 1 year/$0.455M contract for 2008 renewed 3/2/08 $2.3M signing bonus 08:$0.455M, 09:$0.745M, 10:$1M, 11:$4M, 12:$6M, 13:$8.5M, 14:$10M, 15:$12M may earn additional $6M if Braun qualifies as a Super 2 after 2009 season (increasing salaries to: 10:$3.5M, 11:$5.5M, 12:$7.5M, 13:$9M) award bonus: $50,000 for All Star selection no-trade clause 2008-11, limited no-trade clause 2012-13 (may block deals to 12 clubs), limited no-trade clause 2014-15 (may block deals to 6 clubs)

QUOTE (knightni @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 10:30 AM) If Dye would agree to LF, his defense might be better. His defense is going to be bad no matter where you play him. He's just too damn slow to play the outfield everyday, left field would be no exception. Also; He hasn't played multiple games in LF since 1996, having him learn new angles at age 36 is not going to make him a more competent defender. If Dye is brought back next year it needs to be as a DH, at some point this team is going to have to place a premium on defense, something they've completely ignored in recent years.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Aug 8, 2009 -> 11:35 PM) Since you probably have the window still open, where does Markakis rank? 10th though his arm ranks 4th (Rios is 3rd, Francoeur and Soriano ahead of them). Nick's UZR numbers have been quite bad this year.

QUOTE (YASNY @ Aug 8, 2009 -> 11:27 PM) It's a point that gets overlooked a lot around here. I agree, off topic but it's one of the reasons why someone like Rios would be a huge addition to this team. He's an elite defender with and elite arm. Over the past 3 years he has the highest UZR/150 of any OF with at least 3000 innings played. On the flip side Jermaine Dye has the 3rd lowest number over that same period. His presence alone in CF would completely change the makeup on this defense.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Aug 8, 2009 -> 10:15 PM) If you guys want to mock me for standing up for Jermaine Dye, by all means do so. He is not "atrocious" or "horrendous" in the outfield. You act like every ball hit out there drops. Jermaine Dye is a f***ing stud. You disgree with this?? Wow. Excuse me while I pop in my World Series tape. He really is atrocious. It's not really about dropping the ball as it is being probably the slowest OF in the game so he doesn't get to many balls and when it comes time to throw he often f***s that up with s*** positioning and mechanics. His bat is pretty damn good though.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 8, 2009 -> 04:12 PM) The problem with that article is obvious; did the team hitting the 2nd most home runs make the playoffs? What about the 3rd? At what level do home runs go from being bad to being good? Or could it possibly be there's another related factor, like pitching? The Sox didn't lead the league in HR in 2005, but still hit 200 of them. The Phillies finished with the second most HR in baseball last year and won the World Series. The original observation is rather pointless unless they're trying to make the argument that the stigma of finishing with the most HR somehow overwhelms a team and they crumble because of it.