southsideirish71

hat looked like the Terminator, only slower. Maybe it was his out-of-stater, or it could have been the Hibernator--that baby is definitely going away for the winter. Whatever for Vaughn, it might be see-ya-later. He's probably gonna become a spectator. ----- If he is purposely throwing slower, then he should of watched Major League II and see how it all worked out for Rick Vaugn. I watched it last night, and his Terminator was hitting the same 86 on the gun we have seen from Freddy most of this year. If you can throw hard, then throw hard. If you cant, then get the MRI.

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 10:25 PM) C'mon. Haven't got the creativity to pen a few lines to the success of your favorite team? I'm actually pretty disappointed that so few Sox talk posters seem to be able to conjure up odes to the success of the Sox. I can honestly say the last possible thing I ever thought I would see from sox fans is "Please recite your victory haiku". Its almost creepy.

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 09:35 PM) So, in other words, you would agree that he'd be, at best, the third best pitcher in our bullpen, behind Jenks and Cotts, based on ERA+? (Which is exactly what I said.) Or is Jenks' ERA+ actually lower than Linebrinks? I bet it is. Which illustrates why that stat is not all that it is cracked up to be. I assume you wouldn't supplant Bobby Jenks with Scott Linebrink?? But just to be clear about this, I probably wouldn't trade Josh Fields for Neal Cotts, and I think VERY highly of Neal Cotts. (Maybe Fields will be a bust, but the way he's come on in AAA after posting so-so AA stats indicates to me the guy could be a star. And any everyday player who is above league average is worth more than a set-up bullpen guy.) I'm not averse to adding Linebrink (though I still think Gordon is better). Just not at the price some guys were suggesting. So who would you trade Fields for. Would Santana or Liriano pry him away from you. Lets be realistic on our prospects. He hasnt played a lick of major league ball and you are ready to veto a trade for a dominant reliever because you a projecting someones worth. You realize that we have a 3rd baseman already. And as much as we have talked about moving him to LF. His largest value is at 3rd. We have traded prospects that are considered much better than Fields with a much higher ceiling.

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 09:25 PM) What happens to him when patient AL teams like Boston and the Yankees don't bite on his splitter, which I assume falls out of the zone? If he's so great, his production ought to be better. But, not to be misunderstood. I'd take him. Just not for anything like Josh Fields. Even patient teams have a hard time distinguishing from a 0-2 fastball on the corner at 95 and a splitter that starts out on the outside corner at 91. Outside of Jenks and Thornton none of our relievers have true strikeout stuff. They are contact pitchers who pitch to an advange of getting ahead and letting our defense do the rest. You realize that Josh Fields is playing in a bandbox right. The same bandbox that inflated the Jeremy Reeds who looked like world beaters. I think Josh is a fine prospect. But I think he is at an alltime high and with Crede under control for a while the more we can get, the better. I dont see him as a .320 hitter in the majors. Remember also we have dumped a lot of prospects considered much better than fields.

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 09:20 PM) Well, you may be right. I don't get to see enough live games to judge his velocity. And I can't attest to him having good velocity when he was getting rocked in Seattle. But just because he has a dead arm at the moment doesn't mean he's done for his career. If he is able to revive his arm -- maybe a DL stint is necessary -- all I'm saying is he's a much better big game bet than Javier Vazquez - even with a dead arm. BTW - How did he win the 1-0 game against the Cardinals this year? The same Cardinals that were destroyed by every single AL Central team that it met. Lets not use a team from the NL to compare how great Freddy has done this year. If a simple DL visit would fix Freddys arm, with Bmac ready to go. Dont you think they would of DLed him already. He has had the dead arm all year long. Not just lately. If you feel comfortable will having Freddy and his 86-88 mph fastball run in the playoffs because he pitched well in 2005, I think you are taking blind faith a bit far. Last year when El Duque was below 90 he would get rocked. Then we would DL him, he would regain some velocity and then would be okay. Above 90 El Duque could get people out, below 90 he was meat. Now El Duque is old, and has had numerous documented arm problems. Freddy is younger, and hasnt had any arm issues. Freddy cannot pitch succesfully below 90 unless he learns how to paint the black with his pitches.

A splitter is a pitch that seperates him from the David Riske types that were discussed earlier. A good splitter with an overpowering fastball leads to strikeouts. And for all the people making comments that Linebrink is a product of Petco. His home numbers are worse than his away numbers. He has a 3.74 ERA at home. Versus a 1.64 ERA away from home. He is really tough on lefties, .159BAA, righties only bat .243 against him.

QUOTE(beck72 @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 09:09 PM) Josh Fields will not step in and take over 3b for Castilla and Bellhorn. What 1st place team wants to take a huge risk to put a rookie out there? They'll want a vet. They might still pick up a vet, a rental. However they need someone that can play long term at that position. They havent had a good prospect with power at third for a long time. Sean Burroughs was guy that never developed power. They are dying for a 3rd base right handed hitting power prospect.

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 08:57 PM) One proposed trade I suggested was Javier Vazquez and Scott Podsednik for Tom Gordon and Bobby Abreu, with the possibility of adding a minor league pitcher on our side to get it done. Gordon is and has been a closer for most of his career, and is MUCH better IMHO than Scott Linebrink will ever dream of being. He is also signed for two more years and shows no signs of slowing down. He'd give us a lights-out bullpen. McCarthy would move into the rotation and give us some of the young energy that the Tigers and Twins have. Abreu might be willing to waive his no-trade to play for Ozzie on a World Champion without demanding an extension. As a lead off man, he'd be a vast improvement over Podsednik. This deal would seek to accomplish much of what a Linebrink/Cameron deal would, except that we'd end up with much higher quality players -- Abreu is 3rd in baseball in OBP, and has 19 SBs to only 4 CSs -- who are tied up through at least next year. This kind of trade would give us a chance at back-to-back-to-back WS titles. As for Freddy Garcia, I agree he's an enigma. I suppose you could substitute him for Vazquez in the deal above, but I still trust Garcia a lot more than Vazquez, who has yet to pitch a big game in his life. Garcia has been a money guy -- and was our second best starter last postseason. He was 3-0, and never let the other team have a lead in any of those games, including the 1-0 WS clincher. He's had bad stretches in the past -- remember 2003 with Seattle? -- and come out of it. Maybe he won't this year, but I hold out more hope for that than that Javier Vazquez will ever learn how to win a big game. All the stuff about the legend of Freddy Garcia must be thrown out with his arm issues. Last year and in all of his years with the sox. On the road, during the day, against a good team was a lock. Now he is getting rocked, why...because an 88 mph fastball is easy to tee off on when it isnt located. The Freddy Garcia who threw the 1-0 game last year doesnt exist this year. If he did, he wouldnt be on the block. Freddy is getting absolutely rocked when he faces half way decent AL teams. Last year, he would pitch great against those teams. Billy Koch threw 100mph, and was an elite closer. Then he lost 6 mph on his fastball and was meat. 94 was still fast enough, however Billy didnt have the control to pitch at 94. The same with Freddy. Sure pitchers can pitch in the 80s in the mlb. But they must have excellent control on the corners. Not just throw it over the plate for a strike. You keep bringing up about how he had bad stretches before. He never ever, ever threw this slow before. Not in a game, not for most of the season. He has always been 91-95. When he faced us in Seattle in 2000 he was mid 90s, all last year he was living 92-94. Now all of a sudden poof his velocity is gone. There is something different this year. So all bets are off.

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 08:13 PM) That would be a HORRIBLE trade for the Sox. Here are Scott Linebrinks' career stats. 2001 Hou 9 0 0 0 10.1 6 4 3 0 6 9 0 0 0 0 -- 2.61 2002 Hou 22 0 0 0 24.1 31 21 19 2 13 24 0 0 0 1 -- 7.03 2003 Hou 9 6 0 0 31.2 38 15 15 4 14 17 1 1 0 0 -- 4.26 2003 SD 43 0 0 0 60.2 55 22 19 5 22 51 2 1 0 6 -- 2.82 2003 -- 52 6 0 0 92.1 93 37 34 9 36 68 3 2 0 6 -- 3.31 2004 SD 73 0 0 0 84.0 61 22 20 8 26 83 7 3 0 28 5 2.14 2005 SD 73 0 0 0 73.2 55 17 15 4 23 70 8 1 1 26 5 1.83 2006 SD 41 0 0 0 43.2 31 13 13 8 11 43 6 2 1 18 4 2.68 Total -- 281 6 0 0 340.1 295 122 112 35 123 303 24 8 2 79 14 2.96 Here are David Riske's 2001 Cle 26 0 0 0 27.1 20 7 6 3 18 29 2 0 1 3 0 1.98 2002 Cle 51 0 0 0 51.1 49 32 30 8 35 65 2 2 1 5 0 5.26 2003 Cle 68 0 0 0 74.2 52 21 19 9 20 82 2 2 8 17 5 2.29 2004 Cle 72 0 0 0 77.1 69 32 32 11 41 78 7 3 5 9 7 3.72 2005 Cle 58 0 0 0 72.2 55 28 25 11 15 48 3 4 1 0 0 3.10 2006 Bos 8 0 0 0 9.2 8 4 4 2 3 5 0 1 0 0 -- 3.72 2006 CWS 12 0 0 0 12.0 8 2 2 1 7 9 0 1 0 2 -- 1.50 2006 -- 20 0 0 0 21.2 16 6 6 3 10 14 0 2 0 2 -- 2.49 Total -- 307 0 0 0 339.0 281 141 131 47 145 332 17 14 16 36 13 3.48 Both players will turn 30 this year, Linebrink in August, Riske in October. I've tossed both players' first year in the league. Given the fact that Riske has played his entire career in the AL versus the much easier league, and ballpark, that Linebrink has been pitching in, it is hard to make a case that Linebrink is that much better than Riske. He looks like basically the same pitcher to me. They both throw mostly fastballs, with some sliders and change ups. So, if David Riske was available for a AAA LOOGY who wasn't making our team anytime soon, then Linebrink isn't worth that much more. Now that's not to say San Diego would take a LOOGY for him, but he's certainly not worth anything close to the guy who may be the Sox best positional prospect. So put your GM hat on and tell us what you would do, who you would trade for. And if the answer is just to stand pat and hope that all gets better. That really isnt an option. Because outside of your stat model, one of our pitchers mysteriously is throwing a lot less than he has ever in his career. And he isnt building velocity. And remember, Roy Oswalt pitched just as long and just as far as our starters did in the season. He threw 241.2 innings. Yet by some miracle, he still has his velocity. His ERA is up from 2.94 to 3.06. But outside of that his numbers are similiar.

These threads are getting wierder by the day. Nothing screams to me more for american baseball, than Japanese poetry.

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 07:25 PM) I'd vote against trading Freddy. I remember in 2003 he had a very very bad stretch with Seattle where he got lit up start after start. Yet he pulled out of that spin quite nicely. I realize he's thrown up a lot of junk lately, but I think when he's on, he's got the second best stuff on the staff behind only Contreras. And he's proven he can be a money pitcher. He won all three of his starts last offseason and never let the other team get the lead in any game. I expect that somehow he's going to regain his form and will have several more very good years. Not 20-win seasons. But 15-17 win seasons. And he's young enough that he could win another 100 games in his career. There is no way that we could get fair value for him at this point. When is he going to throw hard again. When I see him hit 91-94 from the start of the game, through the end for a few starts, then I will be on the Freddy is alright tour. But ask yourself this. Freddy was almost traded in the offseason, and now is being dangled. Why? I think KW has a good idea of talent and what not to give up, and what to give up. KW will do something.

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 07:16 PM) I agree with this. As I recall, Freddy looked washed up one year for Seattle too, and bounced back pretty damn well. He's not old. So count me out for trading a guy who will probably win another 100 games in his career for a middle reliever and a prospect. The Sox have usually been the ones trading the "can't miss" guys for valuable players. I'm not ready to be on the other end of those kinds of deals -- not when we're trying to win another World Series. Freddy wasnt throwing in the 80s in Seattle. He was a pitcher who would pitch well at Safeco and his numbers away werent the same.

Shockingly the Mets werent into the can we have one of your best relievers and one of your best young arms for our pile of poo. Then again maybe they remember the entire Kazmir debacle. Pelfry and Sanchez for Garcia would get KW a book deal ala Billy Beane.

QUOTE(Sonik22 @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 04:16 PM) In the course of a weekend, according to the 4 sports experts, the white sox are not gonna make the playoffs. Man the season is over! I officially hate this show. They had the worst arguments i have ever heard. Apparently both garcia and vazquez are on the block. Last i checked KW denied that. Apparently getting swept is a telltale sign that this season is over. We might as well give up, right? This was the first time we got swept this season. The same thing happened last year. We didn't get swept last year until the weekend before the all-star break. Then we came back and kicked ass. I believe that this team hasn't played their best baseball, and even after getting swept we are still 3 games up on the Yankees. Yeah the SP sucks right now, but at this same time last week these same people said the yankees would be the odd man out and that the sox would win the central. Flip-floppers Piss me off. Ozzie, you need to fire up our guys and stick it to the tigers! just my .02 If having a team in front of you playing good baseball while they get to beat up on one of the worst teams in baseball doesnt fire you up to play the Yankees whom are in 2nd for the wildcard, do you think some knucklehead guys at ESPN are going to do it. This team doesnt need a fire and brimstone speech or a picture of a bunch of people not believing them. They need their starting pitching not to suck. If we pitch even half way decent with our Offense we run away with this thing. But when our pitching gives up runs like crazy then no matter how good your O is, you will come up short. Pitch better, catch the ball, selfless hitting with RISP and we will be fine. Pitch like s***, drop the ball, try and hit homers when all you need is a single to tie the game, and then we are the 2001-2004 whitesox. Hit the ball, catch the ball, throw the ball.

QUOTE(BigSqwert @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 02:59 PM) Heh. Nice sig Kalapse. Some of his best work yet.

The cubs have one good healthy young pitcher. So you suggest they trade that guy, for one guy who lost a ton of velocity on his fastball and someone who has been a gas can. Did you take off the fair trades setting on your xbox for that one.

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 05:42 AM) Someone in the NL with a pitcher's park e.g Los Angeles, San Diego I think will end up trading for Freddy. Garcia's shown he can still be dominant, just not against high quality hitting teams in the A.L. I hope you are right. Freddy and his pedestrian fastball against good hitting AL teams is bad. In our park is real bad. In the grand canyon of some of those parks you are talking about he might do good. The NL is bad, and a medicore pitcher in the AL can be a 2 or a 3 in the NL. This rotation needs more bmac.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 11:51 PM) UP TO THE SECOND SP TRUST LEVELS: - 5.) Freddy Maddux - No real reason for him to be pitching for this team in August. I wonder if we had radar gun wars between El Duque and Freddy who would throw harder. It seems like we replaced El Duque of last year, with our new version. Except this version doesnt know when to go on the DL. Hopefully he has a horseshoe up his ass like last years. Remember last year, when El Duque was rested he would break 90 and would dominate. When he was tired and needed DL time he would be in the 80s and would be getting rocked.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 02:46 AM) This team needs more Brandon McCarthy. Thats what I am talking about.

Nice tiddy little review of our big game pitcher.

QUOTE(Heads22 @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 05:45 PM) Mack would be much better suited to spell Dye, IMO. I'd be willing to stomach Thome at first for a game, DH'ing Rob or Alex as well. Our team has had time off. This is the first series off of the allstar break. Dye and Konerko only played a few innings so they cant be tired. None of our regulars should be tired. There is a day off tomorrow.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 05:32 PM) I wouldn't mind seeing Cintron at SS against Bonderman, and I would understand Mackowiak playing somewhere against him also. In that large real estate of CF Mack would be a butcher. He wouldnt have a prayer out there. Running down liners into the gap. I would rather have Anderson and his approach. He could get a hit off of Randy, he can get a hit off of Mussina. He can go up against Bonderman.

QUOTE(SleepyWhiteSox @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 05:32 PM) lol I see way more exaggerated bashing around here. Predicting doom may be the cool thing to do, but there's nothing wrong with a little realistic optimism. Sleep have you watched our supposed number 2 pitcher Freddy throw this year. Have you noticed anything funny about the velocity. Do you think he is just mothballing his fastball for the postseason for whatever reason, or maybe there is something there. Sleep do you see the pitching staff overall. Any similiarities to 2001-2004. In fact great O, medicore pitching staff, bad fundamentals, too reliant on the long ball. That is pretty much the formula for the Pre 2005 world champion whitesox. We have a great offense this year. I figured our pitching would drop a bit. I had no idea how far it would drop though. Our pitching is downright horrid outside of Garland and the Count right now. If we were pitching okay, and hitting like we were and this was a slump. I wouldnt have a problem. But our pitching really hasnt been there all year long.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 05:15 PM) What've you got? I won't predict wins, but I will say, "More than Detroit." I think Javy will be our second best pitcher, behind the Count. Bmac into the rotation. 2nd best pitcher in August behind the Count. Freddy DLd or traded. Anderson hits 280 from here on out for the rest of the year. He starts to show more power in late August.

QUOTE(Heads22 @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 05:12 PM) Even the Rally Crede can't help a Freddy Garcia 86 MPH fastball. But either dealing Garcia or putting his tired arm on the DL can. Maybe the Rally Crede can help us with that. Ozzie needs to start his A team against the Tiggers this series. No resting of any f***ing starters unless they are on the verge of death. No f***ing Widger because X pitcher is a lefty. No Cintron because I want to give Gooch a rest. No Mack because we need a more lefty based lineup. You want to pinch hit late in the game to get a matchup, go for it. You start any of those, or more to the point large numbers of those on the silly idea of getting guys fresh then how about a no.